BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Technical Topics > Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-31-2011, 01:30 PM   #1
southlight
Moderator / European Editor
 
southlight's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Germany

Posts: 6,748
iTrader: (0)

Arrow BMW Patents Its Electric Turbocharger Technology. More Power, Less Lag.

BIMMERPOST NEWS
BMW Patents Its Electric Turbocharger Technology. More Power, Less Lag.
67
COMMENTS
Name:  BMW_patent_electric_1.jpg
Views: 38732
Size:  52.4 KB

Turbochargers are a popular technology in the automotive world as of late. It allows rather low displacement engines to have relatively high power outputs, while also managing to return fairly good fuel consumption figures (on paper).

Despite the technology being decades old, some of its drawbacks could still be improved upon. One of these issues is the well-known problem of turbo size. A smaller turbine spools up quicky but runs out of steam at higher revs while a bigger turbine offers enough power at high revs but often is too slow at lower revs which results in turbo lag.

BMW has now patented its own idea on how to address these issues, and it involves the use of an often rumored "electric turbocharger".

We reported before that BMW has considered (or may still be considering) the use of an electric turbocharger as part of a potential tri-turbo 6-cylinder engine for the next generation F80 M3 (the latest rumors point towards a bi or tri-turbo inline-6 as the new M3's powerplant). While we still don't know if the next gen M3 will be powered by an engine with an electric turbocharger, we do now know how such an electric turbocharger would be implemented, courtesy of a patent application BMW submittted to the German patent office.


First, here's an explanation of the electric turbo's individual parts (as labeled in the diagrams):
1) turbo layout
2) turbine
2') turbine axle
3) compressor
3') compressor axle
4) electric motor (and alternator)
5) turbo axle
6) (turbine axle) clutch
7) (compressor axle) clutch
8) gearing


Name:  BMW_patent_electric_0_bp.jpg
Views: 31750
Size:  39.9 KB

We've highlighted and colored the following schematic diagrams to show how the technology works:

Unlike a traditional mechanical turbo layout, (exhaust) turbine and (intake) compressor aren't fixed on the same axle. Via the clutches #6 and #7 both the turbine and the compressor can be uncoupled from the turbine axle (#5). When the engine is idling or coasting, both clutches are open and an electric motor (#4) can operate without any load. Via gearing (#8) the speed of of the e-motor and the turbo axle can be further adjusted.


Name:  BMW_patent_electric_a_bp.jpg
Views: 31678
Size:  38.4 KB

If the driver steps on the pedal the clutch (#7) closes and connects the electric motor (#4) to the compressor (#3). Due to the inertia of the (running!) electric motor, the compressor spools up quickly and compresses enough air to make for a fast engine response, which results in less lag. The turbine (#2) which wouldn't be able to spool up the compressor quickly enough is decoupled due to the clutch (#6) still being open.


Name:  BMW_patent_electric_b_bp.jpg
Views: 31329
Size:  38.6 KB

Once the turbine (#2) has reached a certain speed, the clutch (#6) closes and both the turbine and the electric engine are used to run the compressor (#3).


Name:  BMW_patent_electric_c_bp.jpg
Views: 32967
Size:  37.9 KB

When maximum boost is reached, the electric motor switches to an alternator mode, generates power for the battery, and avoids the turbine exceeding a certain speed. This renders a wastegate needless and ensures sure no energy from the turbine is wasted. If the driver backs off the accelerator, both clutches (#6, #7) open and the electric motor can continue running without any load from the turbine or the compressor.


According to BMW's patent application, this invention makes for a great engine response, particularly during the transition from idling to load. It also renders a wastegate needless and adds efficiency. We can't tell if this technology will actually make it into the next M3, but this sounds amazing without any doubt. Thanks to klaus kneip for his tips!


We'll keep you updated on the subject, in the meantime check out our previous coverage and spyshots of the F80 M3: http://www.bimmerpost.com/m3/f30m3/

southlight is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 02:32 PM   #2
han405
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: E46 M3, E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: PA

Posts: 205
iTrader: (0)

Wow

Wow!
han405 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 02:34 PM   #3
James T. Kirk
Captain of the Enterprise
 
James T. Kirk's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 1 Series M Coupe
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Alpha Quadrant, Sector 001

Posts: 1,425
iTrader: (0)

Why is it that these patent drawings always look like Thomas Edison drew them with a straight-edge and quill?

Doesn't anyone at the office have AutoCad?
__________________

2011 1 Series M Coupe VO M3 vs 1M Comparo Review
2011 M3 E90 DCT ZCP (sold) * 2010 335i Sedan (sold)
2005 M3 Convertible (sold) * 2003 325i Sedan (sold)
James T. Kirk is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 02:38 PM   #4
M-Power111
First Lieutenant
 
M-Power111's Avatar
 
Drives: Not a BMW....yet
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Clearwater, FL USA

Posts: 398
iTrader: (0)

interesting, this will obviousley solve the turbo lag problem. i can def. see this being on the new M3 or atleast i hope it will be. a tri-turbo sounds better then a bi-turbo.
__________________

BMW=
M-Power111 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 02:41 PM   #5
Jblack4083
Captain
 
Drives: E46 ///M3 JB/CB
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Queens, NYC

Posts: 794
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by James T. Kirk View Post
Why is it that these patent drawings always look like Thomas Edison drew them with a straight-edge and quill?

Doesn't anyone at the office have AutoCad?
exactly!
Jblack4083 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 02:43 PM   #6
My E90
Captain
 
Drives: '13 E92 M3 6MT SSII
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Floorida

Posts: 759
iTrader: (2)

I was thinking the same thing about the drawings. It's like the format needs to be as if it were conceived on the underside of a napkin in a bar.
__________________
'13 M3 E92 SSII | 6MT | ZCP | ZPP | EPS | NAV | MPE | ED & PCD
My E90 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 02:53 PM   #7
M-Power111
First Lieutenant
 
M-Power111's Avatar
 
Drives: Not a BMW....yet
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Clearwater, FL USA

Posts: 398
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by My E90 View Post
I was thinking the same thing about the drawings. It's like the format needs to be as if it were conceived on the underside of a napkin in a bar.
its like their stuck in the past. i guess if it works then why update. who knows.
__________________

BMW=
M-Power111 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 03:04 PM   #8
positiveions
Lieutenant General
 
positiveions's Avatar
 
Drives: 09 MKV JETTA 2.5 & E90 M3 :)
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: La Verne, CA

Posts: 10,501
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via MSN to positiveions Send a message via Yahoo to positiveions
interesting
positiveions is offline   Lebanon
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 03:25 PM   #9
Merlosso
Banned
 
Drives: Results
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Germantown, MD

Posts: 495
iTrader: (2)

Originally the rumors were that a tri-turbo set-up would be two traditional turbos and one electric one. Now that we know more about this "electric" turbo, it looks to be an evolution of the turbo that adds electric assist to get it spooling until there is enough exhaust gas to take over. This could allow for the use of bigger turbos without the lag that they are known for.

It seems like this could be used to reduce the number of turbos needed rather than be a supplemental turbo.

It will be interesting to see how these are used and how they perform.
Merlosso is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 03:36 PM   #10
veightkiller
Brigadier General
 
veightkiller's Avatar
 
Drives: e90 335i
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Vancouver,B.C

Posts: 4,154
iTrader: (3)

It's kinda hard to imagine with all the squares in the drawing.
veightkiller is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 03:48 PM   #11
taylors335
Major
 
taylors335's Avatar
 
Drives: Space Grey 08 335i
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: san diego

Posts: 1,179
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2008 335i  [3.50]
sounds great ..... wonder how these clutch's and motor/gearbox will last with the extreme heat turbines can create !
taylors335 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 03:51 PM   #12
DDS2015
Major
 
Drives: 2011 E90 LCI 328i xdrive
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Winnipeg/Minneapolis

Posts: 1,040
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Wow this is incredibly brilliant. However, it also sounds overly complex. Also, what will the lifespan of the clutches be? Sounds like it would be a nightmare to fix if something went wrong.
DDS2015 is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 04:09 PM   #13
M-Power111
First Lieutenant
 
M-Power111's Avatar
 
Drives: Not a BMW....yet
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Clearwater, FL USA

Posts: 398
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDS2015 View Post
Wow this is incredibly brilliant. However, it also sounds overly complex. Also, what will the lifespan of the clutches be? Sounds like it would be a nightmare to fix if something went wrong.
it sounds like this would be 1 contained unit per turbo, so if something goes wrong they might just swap the whole unit out and yes that does sound expensive.
__________________

BMW=
M-Power111 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 04:10 PM   #14
kaishang
Colonel
 
Drives: 2010 E90 330d
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London

Posts: 2,198
iTrader: (0)

Tricky technology

Although turbochargers by definition operate on exhaust gases. So the electric motor is a supercharger. Or the unit can operate as a turbocharger or a supercharger. Or something.
kaishang is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 04:11 PM   #15
kaishang
Colonel
 
Drives: 2010 E90 330d
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London

Posts: 2,198
iTrader: (0)

Also I think I will not queue up to buy a 1st model year example of a BMW with this inside....
kaishang is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 05:05 PM   #16
turb0mike
 
turb0mike's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 335i Racecar
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: San Diego, CA

Posts: 2,706
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 BMW 335i  [4.45]
This will be fun for HPF to do a single turbo upgrade. LOL.
turb0mike is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 05:14 PM   #17
sojirovskensi
Registered
 
Drives: 370z
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Dallas

Posts: 2
iTrader: (0)

Assuming that this tri-turbo technology works, would it be harder to tune than twin-turbo since it involves a technology that most tuners have not experienced so far?
sojirovskensi is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 05:42 PM   #18
Mr. ///M3 RD
Major General
 
Mr. ///M3 RD's Avatar
 
Drives: E350 & 280 SL on Weekends :)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: GTA, Ontario - Canada

Posts: 7,863
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Would have expected some nicer up to date drawings for this presentation ... If one of my designers would come up with this simple building block I would have fired him, since every computer in a design department should have SutoCad installed .... Gosh
__________________
Cheers, Rolf-Dieter

Life will take us to some interesting places, fortunately The ///M3 will too with a many of us know this very well
---> Click here for some good stuff I found
Mr. ///M3 RD is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 05:51 PM   #19
Zebra99
Colonel
 
Zebra99's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 335is E93
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Ontario

Posts: 2,286
iTrader: (5)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by taylors335 View Post
sounds great ..... wonder how these clutch's and motor/gearbox will last with the extreme heat turbines can create !
This will be the new "HPFP" issue, but for the M3's. Can you imagine the headache if this isn't properly test run for years. And it'll cost an arm and leg when it's new, will probably drag up the price for a new M3. I just hope that proper testing is done before they release these cars on the road and another 335i happens.
Zebra99 is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 05:57 PM   #20
rosskie
Major
 
rosskie's Avatar
 
Drives: 335
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: albany or

Posts: 1,062
iTrader: (11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by James T. Kirk View Post
Why is it that these patent drawings always look like Thomas Edison drew them with a straight-edge and quill?

Doesn't anyone at the office have AutoCad?

if its very detailed someone can come in and do the same style turbo but different motor or bigger shaft and get away with it.

This way BMW can just say that was our idea u cant use it
rosskie is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 07:10 PM   #21
NewYearsBoy
Colonel
 
NewYearsBoy's Avatar
 
Drives: IS 300
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bradenton FL

Posts: 2,365
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by James T. Kirk View Post
Why is it that these patent drawings always look like Thomas Edison drew them with a straight-edge and quill?

Doesn't anyone at the office have AutoCad?
Thats probably why they never work...
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------

"Speed never killed anyone its very important to get that straight, Speed has never killed a soul. Suddenly becoming stationary thats what gets people." - Jeremy Clarkson
NewYearsBoy is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-31-2011, 07:14 PM   #22
Tijuana
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 535xi
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Indianapolis

Posts: 217
iTrader: (0)

This system sounds awesome for maximizing power and efficiency, which is right up BMW's alley these days. The first thing I think of is KERS from F1 with the energy recovering wastegate replacement.
Tijuana is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
2014 bmw m3, 2014 m3, 2014 m3 forum, 2014 m3 renders, 2015 bmw m3, 2015 bmw m4, 2015 m3, bmw 80 m3 turbo, bmw f80, bmw f80 forum, bmw f80 forums, bmw f80 m3, bmw f80 m3 sedan, bmw f82, bmw f82 forum, bmw f82 forums, bmw f82 m3, bmw f82 m3 coupe, bmw f82 m3 forum, bmw f82 m4, bmw f82 m4 coupe, bmw f83, bmw f83 m3, bmw f83 m4, bmw m forum, bmw m forums, bmw m3 turbo, bmw m4, bmw m4 coupe, bmw m4 coupe forum, bmw m4 forum, bmw m4 forums, f30 m3 renders, f80, f80 forum, f80 forums, f80 m3, f80 m3 forum, f80 m3 forums, f80 m3 render, f80 m3 renders, f80 m3 sedan, f80 m3 turbo, f82, f82 coupe, f82 forum, f82 forums, f82 m3, f82 m3 coupe, f82 m3 forum, f82 m4, f82 m4 coupe, f82 m4 forum, f82 m4 forums, f83 m3, f83 m4, m forum, m forums, m3 f80, m3 f80 forum

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:33 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST