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      11-11-2011, 12:23 AM   #1
subtlestylez
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Question Please clarify... why the resistance against V6?

I've been reading a lot of discussion over whether the M3/M4 should have a TT I6 or a TT V6.

Then I read a lot of comments that people "would never buy" a V6 M3.

My question is, why are these people so opposed to V6? I figure that BMW knows what they're doing as they've proven that with the high-revving V8. The E9x M3 is a very good M car.
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      11-11-2011, 09:31 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by subtlestylez View Post
I've been reading a lot of discussion over whether the M3/M4 should have a TT I6 or a TT V6.

Then I read a lot of comments that people "would never buy" a V6 M3.

My question is, why are these people so opposed to V6? I figure that BMW knows what they're doing as they've proven that with the high-revving V8. The E9x M3 is a very good M car.
Change is a hard thing. We all think what we have now cannot get better. I think you are right in my experience BMW usually seem to know best. I'm sure the V6 will be great.
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      11-11-2011, 09:54 AM   #3
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It does seem a little silly. I know the core argument is that a V6 is not primarily balanced. However the E30 M3, arguably the purest form of M cars, has a non balanced engine. A V6 certainly allows better packaging and affords more beneficial rearward balance. A 60 degree V6 allows a lower center of gravity than even the canted BMW I6 and a 90 degree V6 which has been rumored would offer even more benefit.

Honestly, at a time when lots of folks cry that the M5 has a version of the X5M motor which is close to the regular 4.4L V8, and the 1M has the 335is motor, it seems like offering a bespoke M motor would be seen as a good thing, even if it isn't as classic as an I6.
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      11-11-2011, 10:10 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
It does seem a little silly. I know the core argument is that a V6 is not primarily balanced. However the E30 M3, arguably the purest form of M cars, has a non balanced engine. A V6 certainly allows better packaging and affords more beneficial rearward balance. A 60 degree V6 allows a lower center of gravity than even the canted BMW I6 and a 90 degree V6 which has been rumored would offer even more benefit.

Honestly, at a time when lots of folks cry that the M5 has a version of the X5M motor which is close to the regular 4.4L V8, and the 1M has the 335is motor, it seems like offering a bespoke M motor would be seen as a good thing, even if it isn't as classic as an I6.
What language is this? It sounds like you are saying something positive!
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      11-11-2011, 10:14 AM   #5
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What language is this? It sounds like you are saying something positive!
Sorry, it leaks out sometimes.
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      11-11-2011, 10:16 AM   #6
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Sorry, it leaks out sometimes.
I'm impressed, I wish I had this kind of knowledge on cars.
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      11-11-2011, 01:20 PM   #7
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I'm not a mechanic or anything, so what do you mean by balance? I did some research and V6 engines have certain parts to keep the cylinder fire to balance, just like an I6. But I really still don't know what that means.

The way I see it, so many other manufacturers use V6 and they produce a lot of power. I'm not sure why BMW shouldn't use it either.

The I6 is such a smooth engine though in terms of power delivery (both N52 and N55/54).

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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
It does seem a little silly. I know the core argument is that a V6 is not primarily balanced. However the E30 M3, arguably the purest form of M cars, has a non balanced engine. A V6 certainly allows better packaging and affords more beneficial rearward balance. A 60 degree V6 allows a lower center of gravity than even the canted BMW I6 and a 90 degree V6 which has been rumored would offer even more benefit.

Honestly, at a time when lots of folks cry that the M5 has a version of the X5M motor which is close to the regular 4.4L V8, and the 1M has the 335is motor, it seems like offering a bespoke M motor would be seen as a good thing, even if it isn't as classic as an I6.
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      11-11-2011, 03:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subtlestylez View Post
I'm not a mechanic or anything, so what do you mean by balance? I did some research and V6 engines have certain parts to keep the cylinder fire to balance, just like an I6. But I really still don't know what that means.

The way I see it, so many other manufacturers use V6 and they produce a lot of power. I'm not sure why BMW shouldn't use it either.

The I6 is such a smooth engine though in terms of power delivery (both N52 and N55/54).
From my understanding, with the way a V6's firing order is timed, one of the piston moves without another one counter-moving at the same time to offset it's inertia.

I could just be talking out of my ass. Maybe someone can confirm that
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      11-11-2011, 04:52 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subtlestylez View Post
I've been reading a lot of discussion over whether the M3/M4 should have a TT I6 or a TT V6.

Then I read a lot of comments that people "would never buy" a V6 M3.

My question is, why are these people so opposed to V6? I figure that BMW knows what they're doing as they've proven that with the high-revving V8. The E9x M3 is a very good M car.
I don't oppose/mind it at all I think it will be great for the pocket book. Driving a sDrive Z4 35i TT before my now M3 I think I would appreciate a TT I6 very well. Besides where can one really open up a M3 except on the track.

I just hope ///M Division will also offer a V8 option to people that like to take the ///M to the track.

I drive my ///M for safety, knowing one can get out off the way when one needs to do so is very comforting My e46 once saved my life, then that is another story altogether

I'm sure what ever the Designers and Engineers will do at the ///M Division will be great it has been like this in the past 30 years and will continue I'm sure of it.

I like to think that the measuring stick in the automobile industry is and has been for many years the ///M Division and many try to keep up with it

my 2 cents anyway after driving two (2) M3's (e92 and e46), two (2) Z4's (e85 & e89) and two (2) e28 (528i and a 535is) we still have the 535is and never will sell.
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Last edited by Mr. ///M3 RD; 11-11-2011 at 05:02 PM. Reason: added ... my 2 cents
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      11-11-2011, 08:25 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by subtlestylez View Post
I'm not a mechanic or anything, so what do you mean by balance? I did some research and V6 engines have certain parts to keep the cylinder fire to balance, just like an I6. But I really still don't know what that means.
Start with this Wikipedia article on Straight engines then click to read specifically about Straight Six engines (aka Inline Six or I6).

Then read this Wikipedia article on V Engines then click to read specifically about V-8 and V-6 engines. V engines can also have different angles between the cylinder banks which affects their design.

In a nutshell, an I6 engine is a naturally balanced engine because of the crankshaft angles and the firing order. If an engine is not naturally balanced then counter balance shafts and other means anti-vibration means can be used to balance the engine which of course adds weight and complexity. Different engine configurations have different pluses and minuses.
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      11-11-2011, 08:34 PM   #11
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I don't agree with any of this.

Although I can agree that a V6 may offer overall better packaging and balance.
The problem with a V6 M3 is pedigree.

911=flat6
Vette=pushrod V8
M3=I-6
Lambo=V12
AMG=V8

Some cars just wouldn't be what they are today without pedigree (racing history plus sticking to what defines THE car.)
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      11-12-2011, 08:55 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 96LTWM3 View Post
I don't agree with any of this.

Although I can agree that a V6 may offer overall better packaging and balance.
The problem with a V6 M3 is pedigree.

911=flat6
Vette=pushrod V8
M3=I-6
Lambo=V12
AMG=V8

Some cars just wouldn't be what they are today without pedigree (racing history plus sticking to what defines THE car.)
There is only one real ///M3 and it had an I4. The next two with the I6 were just follow ups from ///Marketing, and the last one needed a V8 because the vehicle has become ///Massive. They might reset the heritage with a bespoke engine for the turbo DTM car one day and provide another vehicle with ///Magic, but don't count on it.

one I4
two I6
one V8
one TT?

T
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      11-12-2011, 12:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M_US_E30 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 96LTWM3 View Post
I don't agree with any of this.

Although I can agree that a V6 may offer overall better packaging and balance.
The problem with a V6 M3 is pedigree.

911=flat6
Vette=pushrod V8
M3=I-6
Lambo=V12
AMG=V8

Some cars just wouldn't be what they are today without pedigree (racing history plus sticking to what defines THE car.)
There is only one real ///M3 and it had an I4. The next two with the I6 were just follow ups from ///Marketing, and the last one needed a V8 because the vehicle has become ///Massive. They might reset the heritage with a bespoke engine for the turbo DTM car one day and provide another vehicle with ///Magic, but don't count on it.

one I4
two I6
one V8
one TT?

T
The first M3 was a true Motorsport vehicle.

However BMW is not known for their I-4 technology, Honda is.

The 3 series has always been BMWs bread and butter, it's always had an I-6.

I-6 defines BMW, it's the engine they used in the M1, first M5, M6, and 2 M3s.

Now they are using turbos to add power and efficiency, but still stick to the ideals of what defines a 3 series, an I-6
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      11-12-2011, 05:46 PM   #14
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Bottom line - obviously BMW M is weighing the pros/cons of I6 vs. V6 very carefully - I'm confident that if the F80 M3 has a V6, it is safe to say that the benefits of using a V instead of inline outweigh the cons - and I would certainly trust the M Division's weighing of pros/cons of both configurations a thousand times more than the people on this forum who, even if they have engineering degrees, still don't have access to the hard test results that will ultimately lead to M's decision.

I'm sure everyone here loves their NA V-8 - I sure as heck do!! At the same time, the Nissan GTR has a V6 and turbos, rather than an I6/V8, and rather than NA - yet you don't see the automotive press or forums claiming that the GTR is "just a status symbol", "not responsive," having an "unbalanced engine...." etc. etc. In fact, I can't ever remember reading a car magazine review of the Nissan GTR where the end result was "gee, it would have been a great car if only it had a naturally-aspirated I6 or V8 instead."

Once again, I understand that an I6 has certain, inherent advantages over a V6 - particularly balance. However, the V6 is inherently better in terms of cylinder/piston cooling, weight being further aft, etc. If the I6 is truly better overall for the F80, then I believe that is the engine that the M Division will pick. Also, when you look at the C63 AMG coupe (and even the RS5), Mercedes and Audi (and even Lexus with the ISF) have done a pretty good job of "closing the gap" between the M3 and it's competitors (which I like, since it forces BMW to make the M3 much better than it would otherwise be).

The M3 is BMW's highest-profile car - BMW can't afford to have the M3 lose its benchmark position by going with a V6 over an I6 for the simple reason that it might reduce production and/or development costs (which is why I believe that if they go with the turbo V6 - it will be because it had clear performance advantages over a turbo I6).

So - that's my non-engineering opinion on the issue.
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      11-12-2011, 10:50 PM   #15
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I totally see your assessment. V6 are used all over the place and has advantages in terms of space efficiency and power as well.

Whatever M chooses, I'm sure they will want to protect the M3's reputation. The only thing I wouldn't like is if they did call it an M4 for the coupe.

The M3 should be first and foremost should be in coupe form. Who the hell thinks of sports cars with 4 doors?


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Bottom line - obviously BMW M is weighing the pros/cons of I6 vs. V6 very carefully - I'm confident that if the F80 M3 has a V6, it is safe to say that the benefits of using a V instead of inline outweigh the cons - and I would certainly trust the M Division's weighing of pros/cons of both configurations a thousand times more than the people on this forum who, even if they have engineering degrees, still don't have access to the hard test results that will ultimately lead to M's decision.

I'm sure everyone here loves their NA V-8 - I sure as heck do!! At the same time, the Nissan GTR has a V6 and turbos, rather than an I6/V8, and rather than NA - yet you don't see the automotive press or forums claiming that the GTR is "just a status symbol", "not responsive," having an "unbalanced engine...." etc. etc. In fact, I can't ever remember reading a car magazine review of the Nissan GTR where the end result was "gee, it would have been a great car if only it had a naturally-aspirated I6 or V8 instead."

Once again, I understand that an I6 has certain, inherent advantages over a V6 - particularly balance. However, the V6 is inherently better in terms of cylinder/piston cooling, weight being further aft, etc. If the I6 is truly better overall for the F80, then I believe that is the engine that the M Division will pick. Also, when you look at the C63 AMG coupe (and even the RS5), Mercedes and Audi (and even Lexus with the ISF) have done a pretty good job of "closing the gap" between the M3 and it's competitors (which I like, since it forces BMW to make the M3 much better than it would otherwise be).

The M3 is BMW's highest-profile car - BMW can't afford to have the M3 lose its benchmark position by going with a V6 over an I6 for the simple reason that it might reduce production and/or development costs (which is why I believe that if they go with the turbo V6 - it will be because it had clear performance advantages over a turbo I6).

So - that's my non-engineering opinion on the issue.
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      11-13-2011, 01:19 PM   #16
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The first M3 was a true Motorsport vehicle.

However BMW is not known for their I-4 technology, Honda is.

The 3 series has always been BMWs bread and butter, it's always had an I-6.

I-6 defines BMW, it's the engine they used in the M1, first M5, M6, and 2 M3s.

Now they are using turbos to add power and efficiency, but still stick to the ideals of what defines a 3 series, an I-6
My point exactly. The E30 homologation special was race bred first, sales and ///Marketing second. Form follows function.

All the ///M3's since have been a ///Marketing focused endeavor. As will the next one be.

Until they need to build another version to homologate, the true ///M3 heritage is dead.

T
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      11-13-2011, 02:56 PM   #17
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So - that's my non-engineering opinion on the issue.
and very well put ... take it from me a retired mechanical engineer

I drove the TT I6 for a spell last year (22,000 KM in all) and let me add the TT I6 is a great engine, I am sure whatever BMW ///M Division is working on and planning for the next generation M3 will be fantastic.

I said it before and say it again I just hope BMW ///M Division offers the die hard track individual also a V8 option.
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      11-19-2011, 11:56 AM   #18
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TT I6

How did you get to drive a TT I6?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerslide View Post

So - that's my non-engineering opinion on the issue.
and very well put ... take it from me a retired mechanical engineer

I drove the TT I6 for a spell last year (22,000 KM in all) and let me add the TT I6 is a great engine, I am sure whatever BMW ///M Division is working on and planning for the next generation M3 will be fantastic.

I said it before and say it again I just hope BMW ///M Division offers the die hard track individual also a V8 option.
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      11-19-2011, 11:29 PM   #19
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      11-21-2011, 01:11 PM   #20
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E30/E46/E90 all had purpose built "M" engines. For years BMW Motorsport said that natural apiration was the way to go. Now people fear they will offer a massaged V6 based off the current M5 V8 architecture. Add that Benz and/or Audi has had a similar setup (forced induction V6/V8) it makes the M3 seem less special.

Last edited by Socom; 11-21-2011 at 01:28 PM.
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      11-21-2011, 02:14 PM   #21
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E30/E46/E90 all had purpose built "M" engines. For years BMW Motorsport said that natural apiration was the way to go. Now people fear they will offer a massaged V6 based off the current M5 V8 architecture. Add that Benz and/or Audi has had a similar setup (forced induction V6/V8) it makes the M3 seem less special.
Isn't that the same as the E9x M3, which used a V8 based off of the M5 V10 and was the same basic layout as the existing RS4, IS-F and C63? It may have been similar, but retained enough advantages over those two that it generally won every comparison. I imagine the F8x M3 will continue that trend.
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      11-22-2011, 01:01 AM   #22
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E30/E46/E90 all had purpose built "M" engines. For years BMW Motorsport said that natural apiration was the way to go. Now people fear they will offer a massaged V6 based off the current M5 V8 architecture. Add that Benz and/or Audi has had a similar setup (forced induction V6/V8) it makes the M3 seem less special.
This is nonsense! The S65 is a "massaged" version of the S85 minus two cylinders and it is still a "dedicated" m3 engine.

THey will surely do the same with the next one and take the m5 engine and lop off two cylinders.

The difference is the engine in the m5 is quite similar to the 4.4 L turbo in the 550/750/650 compared to the M5 e60 had a v10 that was nothing like anything else. So for cost perspective the current 4.4 LV8 is already so well known that to build a v6 from this won't take nearly as much time or money to make.

Also regarding the balance of a v6 v. I6. Sure without counterweights the I6 is obviously night and day better but nobody in 70 years has not counterbalanced the v6 properly where it runs as smooth as the I6. Don't get me wrong the I6 had a different feel and sound but not necessarily was anything to do with balance v. the V6's.
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