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      11-22-2011, 07:03 AM   #23
Levi
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FI 3.3l V6 is the only way to go for M3 if you want something SPECIAL and M WORTHY. Anyway the 2 door M3 won't be anymore called M3 but M4. The Legend is over, let the new Legend beginn: M One & M Two.
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      11-22-2011, 07:17 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
FI 3.3l V6 is the only way to go for M3 if you want something SPECIAL and M WORTHY. Anyway the 2 door M3 won't be anymore called M3 but M4. The Legend is over, let the new Legend beginn: M One & M Two.
Nice post ... but I have very bad infos - even than expected

The Legend of M seems to be over!
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      11-22-2011, 08:01 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Isn't that the same as the E9x M3, which used a V8 based off of the M5 V10 and was the same basic layout as the existing RS4, IS-F and C63? It may have been similar, but retained enough advantages over those two that it generally won every comparison. I imagine the F8x M3 will continue that trend.
I gave up on trying to edit my post. The X5M/X6M is what I was thinking about. I haven't followed the new M5 to know the similarities eighths X5/6 M.
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      11-22-2011, 08:05 AM   #26
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This is nonsense! The S65 is a "massaged" version of the S85 minus two cylinders and it is still a "dedicated" m3 engine.

THey will surely do the same with the next one and take the m5 engine and lop off two cylinders.

The difference is the engine in the m5 is quite similar to the 4.4 L turbo in the 550/750/650 compared to the M5 e60 had a v10 that was nothing like anything else. So for cost perspective the current 4.4 LV8 is already so well known that to build a v6 from this won't take nearly as much time or money to make.

Also regarding the balance of a v6 v. I6. Sure without counterweights the I6 is obviously night and day better but nobody in 70 years has not counterbalanced the v6 properly where it runs as smooth as the I6. Don't get me wrong the I6 had a different feel and sound but not necessarily was anything to do with balance v. the V6's.
My arguement is that a V6 makess the m3 seem less "special".
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      11-22-2011, 11:57 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
Nice post ... but I have very bad infos - even than expected

The Legend of M seems to be over!
What bad news do you have? PM me if you mind. Auch auf Deutsch wenn du willst.
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      11-23-2011, 01:48 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
What bad news do you have? PM me if you mind. Auch auf Deutsch wenn du willst.
Mein Englisch ist leider seit 20 jahren eingerostet- vielleicht kann es ja jemand übersetzen...
Ich habe ein sehr inniges Verhältnis zur M-GmbH und bis Montag war tatsächlich der V6 favorisiert und stand ganz oben auf der Entwicklungsliste.
Leider wurde am Montag vom Vorstand beschlossen: Das Projekt V6 wird gestoppt und es geht mit dem R6 weiter....

Jedem ist und war klar, dass der V6 alles besser kann!
Er ist standfester, bietet das bessere Entwicklungspotenzial, besseres Ansprechverhalten, etc...
Die Leistung war ursprünglich auf 470 PS avisiert, mit Drivers-Package sogar 500 PS...

Einziger Nachteil: Die Kosten!
Und genau aus diesem Grund wurde das Projekt V6 nun beendet und auf den R6 gesetzt.
Es wird nun ein popeliger 335i gepimpt! Damit wird die Leistung bei max. 420 PS liegen und die wenig besseren Fahrwerte nur aufgrund des etwas geringeren Gewichts gegenüber dem E90 erreicht.

Nun muss jeder selber wissen, was er möchte...ich persönlich werde jedenfalls keine 25.000 € mehr für einen gepimpten 335i berappen.
Denn welche Vorteile bringt der M3 denn nun noch gegenüber einem 335i?
Die prollige Optik? Muss ich eh nicht unbedingt haben...
Das DKG? Wird es im F30-335i auch geben...
Das adaptive Fahrwerk? Hat der F30-335i jetzt auch...
Die Leistung? Schraubt mir jeder Tuner für 1.000 € auch dorthin...

...und wenn es den Motor zerreist? Ja und...keine 20.000 € und es ist ein neuer drin- ist immer noch billiger als ein M3
Ich bin jedenfalls nicht gewillt, Großserientechnik zu überhöhten Preisen zu kaufen. Ein M war bisher immer etwas besonderes- und damit seinen Preis auch irgendwo wert! Aber unter den zu erwartenden Umständen werde ich mir einen C63 kaufen...
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      11-23-2011, 03:19 AM   #29
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I6 for sure? based on N55 or N54? meh
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      11-23-2011, 03:31 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by duk View Post
I6 for sure? based on N55 or N54? meh
Same descission they made with the 1M ... and probably the same engine, with greater turbos to reach 400+HP output ... and with the patented eDrive-Turbo to reach an better response on low rpm. This seems to the cheapest possible way to make an engine in this power range ... but this is never an real M engine !!!
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      11-23-2011, 06:24 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Socom View Post
E30/E46/E90 all had purpose built "M" engines. For years BMW Motorsport said that natural apiration was the way to go. Now people fear they will offer a massaged V6 based off the current M5 V8 architecture. Add that Benz and/or Audi has had a similar setup (forced induction V6/V8) it makes the M3 seem less special.
BMW has been using the same engines in the M cars as the regular 3 series cars for every M3 until the E90/92/93. This was the first version where the M3 had a totally different engine from the regular 3 series cars.

The E30 M3 engine (S14) was a development of the M10 4 cylinder with a S38/M88 cylinder head. The M10 was a series production engine from 1960 to 1987 in many different BMW cars

The E36 M3 engines (S50 & S52) were developments of the M50 & M52 inline sixes from the E30 and E36 3 series cars.

The E46 M3 engine (S54) was a development of the M54 inline six from the E46 3 Series cars.

The E90/92/93 M3 engine was the only M3 specific engine to date. It was a development of the S85 M5/M6 engine which was one of a very few ground up engine designs for the M division. The S65 has not yet and most likely will not be used in any other BMW car after the E90/92/93 M3.
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      11-23-2011, 06:49 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duk View Post
I6 for sure? based on N55 or N54? meh
This morning i had an telephonecall from BMW M.

I told my contact about the bad meaning for an Inlinesix-machine based on the N54/55.
But he told me, that this is no option, to use the N54/55.
First they need more than 3 liters- and this ist with the N54/55 unable!
And second, they have enough other machine-Basements to realise a perfekt Turbo-Machine....

Also he has an invitation for me, to drive the new F80 in the near future...
So i wait and see...
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      11-25-2011, 06:28 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
BMW has been using the same engines in the M cars as the regular 3 series cars for every M3 until the E90/92/93. This was the first version where the M3 had a totally different engine from the regular 3 series cars.

The E30 M3 engine (S14) was a development of the M10 4 cylinder with a S38/M88 cylinder head. The M10 was a series production engine from 1960 to 1987 in many different BMW cars

The E36 M3 engines (S50 & S52) were developments of the M50 & M52 inline sixes from the E30 and E36 3 series cars.

The E46 M3 engine (S54) was a development of the M54 inline six from the E46 3 Series cars.

The E90/92/93 M3 engine was the only M3 specific engine to date. It was a development of the S85 M5/M6 engine which was one of a very few ground up engine designs for the M division. The S65 has not yet and most likely will not be used in any other BMW car after the E90/92/93 M3.
Well put.

People have this Pollyanna type view of the e30 M3 - it was a hack!
The engine came from the M10, the head was from a 6cyl engine, the body was a seam welded coupe, the brakes came from a 5 series, it was a bitza.

That doesn't take away from how brilliant it is, but just realize that it wasn't this magical one off hand build M car. It was put together from factory leftovers. Just like the 1M, and that worked out ok too...
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      11-28-2011, 08:05 AM   #34
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Why resistance to V6 ?

Because it's different than what people are used to. Well at least M fanboys.
That's all.

When the last M3 turned V8, ooh, the inline concept was forsaken.
When the 1M and M5 turned to forced induction, ooh, the natural aspiration concept was forsaken.


People love what they know, and fear what they don't know.

And it's not like there are no V6 spec'ed fantastic cars out there. So there's no problem inherent to the V6 layout.
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      12-01-2011, 10:06 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by kueks29 View Post
Unfortunately my English is rusty, since it's been 20 years. Maybe someone can translate ...
I have a very close relationship to the M-GmbH and as of Monday in fact the V6 was the favorite and was high on the development list.
Unfortunately, on Monday the Board decided to stop the V6 project and go onwards with the R6 (I6?) ....

It is and was clear that the V6 can do everything better!
It is balanced, offers the potential for better development, better response, etc. ..
The power output was originally advised to be 470PS, with driver's package even 500PS ...

The only drawback: the cost!
And this is exactly why the project was ended and replaced by the R6 (I6?).
It is now a booger pimped 335i! Thus, the power will be 420 horsepower max and the M3 will offer only slightly better performance because of the slightly lower weight compared to the E90.

Now everyone needs decide for themselves what they want ... I will personally shell out no more than € 25,000 ($34000) for a 335i pimped, because what benefits will the M3 offer now compared to a 335i?
The crappy optics? I don't necessarily need them...
The DCT? That will also be available on the F30 335i ...
The adaptive suspension? The F30 335i has that also now ...
The performance? Give any tuner $1,000 there as well ...

... and if it [the tune] blows the engine? Yes... it's just $20,000 for a new one - still cheaper than an M3.
Anyway, I'm not willing to buy large-scale production technology at inflated prices.
An M has always been something special and its price would better be worth it somewhere!
But under the expected circumstances, I'll buy a C63 ...
Translated

That's terrible news on the other hand.
I might just hold on to my N54 E92...
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      12-05-2011, 10:17 PM   #36
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Translated

That's terrible news on the other hand.
I might just hold on to my N54 E92...
I would not believe a word. Some random guy on the e90board forum has more info on the M engine than any other person out there. Not likely.

It will NOT be an n54 or n55, that is all i know.
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      12-06-2011, 12:39 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
Same descission they made with the 1M ... and probably the same engine, with greater turbos to reach 400+HP output ... and with the patented eDrive-Turbo to reach an better response on low rpm. This seems to the cheapest possible way to make an engine in this power range ... but this is never an real M engine !!!
I hope that BMW M GmbH does not do this because it would cheapen the cachet of the M3 [M4].

Good time, then, to consider treasuring the E92 M3 V8
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      01-19-2012, 09:00 AM   #38
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I know I will get blasted for this but I would like to see BMW take a stab at the Flat 6 (boxer) engine. If it's about weight distribution, CoG and balance, the flat setup would be pretty ideal.

BMW is known for their 50/50 distribution and predictable handling on the road/track. My argument is, "who cares what kind of engine achieves this performance." BMW has been hugely successful with the current M3 iteration using the V8, winning C/D's Car of the Year.

All that really matters is that the next M outperforms the last M in all facets.
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      01-25-2012, 03:47 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyleb350 View Post
From my understanding, with the way a V6's firing order is timed, one of the piston moves without another one counter-moving at the same time to offset it's inertia.

I could just be talking out of my ass. Maybe someone can confirm that
Not quite...perhaps this will explain things.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...angles-feature
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      01-27-2012, 02:57 PM   #40
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I don't agree with any of this.

Although I can agree that a V6 may offer overall better packaging and balance.
The problem with a V6 M3 is pedigree.

911=flat6
Vette=pushrod V8
M3=I-6
Lambo=V12
AMG=V8

Some cars just wouldn't be what they are today without pedigree (racing history plus sticking to what defines THE car.)
Many people just care about the balancing of the engine. I see not too many people caring about the heat issue. It is hard to make an I6 engine over 400 ponies without adding force induction. Look at the E46 M3, almost the last drop of juice had been squeezed out. Heat issue is the problem when adding a turbo charge on I6 engine, 335i was a good example and it ran lean mode on the track all the time. M3 is a pure racer on the track, heat is the big issue to concern when using I6 twin turbo engine. The heat problem in the fifth and sixth cylinders are the big headache. Therefore, I see no surprise BMW going to use the V6 turbo on the New M3. I think this is the main reason, I guess !
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      01-27-2012, 11:22 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by deltarain View Post
Many people just care about the balancing of the engine. I see not too many people caring about the heat issue. It is hard to make an I6 engine over 400 ponies without adding force induction. Look at the E46 M3, almost the last drop of juice had been squeezed out. Heat issue is the problem when adding a turbo charge on I6 engine, 335i was a good example and it ran lean mode on the track all the time. M3 is a pure racer on the track, heat is the big issue to concern when using I6 twin turbo engine. The heat problem in the fifth and sixth cylinders are the big headache. Therefore, I see no surprise BMW going to use the V6 turbo on the New M3. I think this is the main reason, I guess !
Nonsense!

The M3 gets a straight six-cylinder 3.3 liter engine!
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      01-28-2012, 08:38 AM   #42
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Nonsense!

The M3 gets a straight six-cylinder 3.3 liter engine!
Yes- it is an inline six as I have heard as well.
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      01-28-2012, 09:21 AM   #43
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Yes, kueks turned out to be well-informed yet again when he mentioned the V6 might be too expensive back in November (the post written in German in this very thread).

Personallly, I wouldn't have minded a V6 but guess an inline-6 is better for general appeal. So the question remaining is this: How many turbos, three or four?


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      01-28-2012, 10:54 AM   #44
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Quote:
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Yes, kueks turned out to be well-informed yet again when he mentioned the V6 might be too expensive back in November (the post written in German in this very thread).

Personallly, I wouldn't have minded a V6 but guess an inline-6 is better for general appeal. So the question remaining is this: How many turbos, three or four?


Best regards,
south
3 Turbos seems very unlikely ... I´dont think they would define their eTurbo-systems as an extra turbo.

2 TwinScroll-Turbos were that, what would be very likely ... so should 4 Turbos the right term if you would follows the BMW definition of their TwinScroll Turbo.
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