EXXEL Distributions
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > M3/M4 versus...

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-01-2012, 01:42 PM   #1
lurks
Private
4
Rep
65
Posts

Drives: F8* maybe
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: 11553

iTrader: (0)

F80 M3 engine why not V8?

I have read a lot of threads about turbo inline 6 and turbo v6. We know in the new M5 BMW went from N/A V10 to turbo V8 but why isn't there more talk about a "small" displacement (3 liter) bi or tri turbo V8? What would be so bad about a high revving 3 liter turbo V8 for the next BMW M3?
Appreciate 0
      04-01-2012, 04:41 PM   #2
mapezzul
Special Agent
mapezzul's Avatar
United_States
29
Rep
1,737
Posts

Drives: Depends on the day!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bavaria

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurks View Post
I have read a lot of threads about turbo inline 6 and turbo v6. We know in the new M5 BMW went from N/A V10 to turbo V8 but why isn't there more talk about a "small" displacement (3 liter) bi or tri turbo V8? What would be so bad about a high revving 3 liter turbo V8 for the next BMW M3?
They ran two different V8 prototypes on the bench and in the real world reportedly and they did not meet the MPG they were looking for at a specific cost to produce level.

They will not be building anything naturally aspirated moving forward so forced induction is it. With the F80 they are looking at efficiency and performance. The real question is if it is running e-chargers like has been rumored where is that energy going... electric motors for push button boost or something similar. BMW has not showed its hand in hybrids in racing yet....We will learn something very soon.
Appreciate 0
      04-01-2012, 09:33 PM   #3
lurks
Private
4
Rep
65
Posts

Drives: F8* maybe
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: 11553

iTrader: (0)

I've always thought a V8 is better than a V6 of the same displacement. I know turbos are the future because of emissions and fuel efficiency. Hypothetically, if BMW is going to use a 3.2 turbo V6, why not use a 3.2 turbo V8 instead? I'm sure most would be willing to cough up more money for the latter engine. True/false? What are the specific pros/cons of the two configurations?
Appreciate 0
      04-02-2012, 12:52 AM   #4
kueks29
Private First Class
kueks29's Avatar
Germany
1
Rep
101
Posts

Drives: BMW E90 M3
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Anywhere

iTrader: (0)

It's easy!

1) The V8 has more parts and is more expensive to manufacture
2) The V8 is heavier than a V6
3) The M5 has a V8 and the natural hierarchy must be maintained
Appreciate 0
      04-02-2012, 06:34 AM   #5
BMW269
Brigadier General
No_Country
259
Rep
3,897
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kueks29 View Post
It's easy!

1) The V8 has more parts and is more expensive to manufacture
2) The V8 is heavier than a V6
3) The M5 has a V8 and the natural hierarchy must be maintained
The Lexus/Toyota 4.8l V10 is lighter than the 3.5l V6.
Appreciate 0
      04-02-2012, 06:47 AM   #6
aajami
Brigadier General
aajami's Avatar
United_States
194
Rep
4,480
Posts

Drives: Space Gray '09 E92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
The Lexus/Toyota 4.8l V10 is lighter than the 3.5l V6.
And the S65 V8 is lighter than the S54 I6. Displacement and cylinder count isn't necessarily indicative of weight.
__________________
'09 E92 M3: Space Gray, Black, Carbon Leather | ZTP 2MK ZPP 2MT 6FL | link 1 / link 2
Mods: M Performance exhaust | ZCP retrofit | Euro airbox | GTS DCT flash | JPN 240 ECU flash | Euro LCI taillights | CRT lip | OEM alarm retrofit | Space Gray bumper plugs | BMW Performance: Mk. II spoiler / Mk. II non-electronic steering wheel / mirror caps / front grilles / side gills / intake louvers / emblem
Appreciate 0
      04-02-2012, 06:49 AM   #7
kueks29
Private First Class
kueks29's Avatar
Germany
1
Rep
101
Posts

Drives: BMW E90 M3
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Anywhere

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
The Lexus/Toyota 4.8l V10 is lighter than the 3.5l V6.
20 minutes googling and even a phone call to Lexus Germany produced no figures, what the engine weighs the LFA actually!

But it did something else interesting out:
The V6 engine replacement costs than about 1/4 of the V10 engine of the LFA. This is a thoroughbred racing engine and a host of materials that would be in volume production unaffordable (eg manganese) ...
In addition, the engine of the LFA every 10,000 km, an investigation be carried out and it is advisable to carry out every 3,000 km and a oil change.

In other words:
A BMW F1 V10 weighs 83 Kg including all auxiliary equipment .. the R6 a brief 335i 180 kg, including all ancillary equipment ...
Only the engines can not compare ...
Appreciate 0
      04-02-2012, 09:04 AM   #8
BMW269
Brigadier General
No_Country
259
Rep
3,897
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kueks29 View Post
20 minutes googling and even a phone call to Lexus Germany produced no figures, what the engine weighs the LFA actually!

But it did something else interesting out:
The V6 engine replacement costs than about 1/4 of the V10 engine of the LFA. This is a thoroughbred racing engine and a host of materials that would be in volume production unaffordable (eg manganese) ...
In addition, the engine of the LFA every 10,000 km, an investigation be carried out and it is advisable to carry out every 3,000 km and a oil change.

In other words:
A BMW F1 V10 weighs 83 Kg including all auxiliary equipment .. the R6 a brief 335i 180 kg, including all ancillary equipment ...
Only the engines can not compare ...
I was kidding. I know we cannot compare high-perfomrance racing / race inspired/derivated engines to normal ones. In this case the S65 is quite light light compared to N54: 202 kg vs. 195 kg.
Appreciate 0
      04-02-2012, 10:05 AM   #9
gblansten
Beandoc
gblansten's Avatar
United_States
283
Rep
2,737
Posts

Drives: 2014 BMW M5 SG/SS
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Thick ascending limb

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
And the S65 V8 is lighter than the S54 I6. Displacement and cylinder count isn't necessarily indicative of weight.


The M156 6.2 liter V8 in the C63 AMG is also the same weight as the S65.
Appreciate 0
      04-03-2012, 12:30 AM   #10
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
292
Rep
10,360
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kueks29 View Post
The V8 ... is more expensive to manufacture
We have a winner.

This has been discussed extensively here on the forum. Other manufacturers are sticking with NA such as Audi, Porsche, Ferrari (and no I am not making a direct comparison of BMW to Ferrari...it is still a relevant point). By going to DI and other engine "trickery" they are able to significantly green up NA engines. The sole reason BMW M is moving to FI is to have more common engines with more common parts and less parts all of which provide MORE PROFIT. BMW have published many investor reports that highlight their effort in parts reduction and commonality. It's that simple, profit.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
Appreciate 0
      04-03-2012, 05:46 AM   #11
John_01
Colonel
John_01's Avatar
Australia
82
Rep
2,345
Posts

Drives: E90 325i, E82 135i
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sydney, Australia

iTrader: (0)

I doubt BMW would design a specific engine for just the M3/M4. I expect BMW to develop a new line of engines that can be used in both M2 and M3 models.

The other question we can ask is why don't BMW put the S63 turbo V8 engine in the M3/M4. As long as the packaging / weight / durability / cooling issues are all ok, it would seem logical to me. Its definitely the cheapest option because the engine already exists!
Appreciate 0
      04-03-2012, 06:08 AM   #12
BMW269
Brigadier General
No_Country
259
Rep
3,897
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_01 View Post
I doubt BMW would design a specific engine for just the M3/M4. I expect BMW to develop a new line of engines that can be used in both M2 and M3 models.
That is just what is likely to happen, 4.4l V8 for M6, 3.3l V6 (minus 2 cylinders) for M4 and 2.2l I4 (half V8 engine block) for M2.
Appreciate 0
      04-03-2012, 06:13 AM   #13
kueks29
Private First Class
kueks29's Avatar
Germany
1
Rep
101
Posts

Drives: BMW E90 M3
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Anywhere

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
That is just what is likely to happen, 4.4l V8 for M6, 3.3l V6 (minus 2 cylinders) for M4 and 2.2l I4 (half V8 engine block) for M2.
Basically I agree with you!

But in the M2 will do certainly not a 4-cylinder is serving.
Because there is already the 135i and M135i with 6-cylinder and it is the customer can not communicate why they should not spend more money on two cylinders less.

With the old E30 M3, it was still possible because of the faster, easier and more biting than the 325i was, and because it took him so for racing.
Today, there are no series, where one could thus use a motor ..
To that extent, I guess times that of the M2 a further uprated 3.0 I6 gets ...
Appreciate 0
      04-03-2012, 06:53 AM   #14
BMW269
Brigadier General
No_Country
259
Rep
3,897
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

So both M4 and M2 will have 6 cylinder engines? I don't think. The N55 is a heavy engine. An M2 with 360 PS from a 2.2l I4, with a more rev friendly engine, much lighter and with better balance would make the M2 remarkably better than the M235i. It would be like an M3 CSL in terms of power, weight, size and of course handling, but even better thanks to higher torque.

The 1M is not much more powerful than the 135i however it is by far a better handling car. The same goes for the M2 vs. M235i. The 1 Series with N54/N55 feels nose heavy compared to the 3 Series with this engine. In fact a 128i E82 has a better handling than the 135i E82, just not the straight line performance, but also better response and sound. The N55 is not rev-friendly as it has longer stoke, what is not the case of the S63 stroke, which is undersquared, so more rev-friendly, what an M should be about.

Last edited by BMW269; 04-03-2012 at 07:03 AM.
Appreciate 0
      04-03-2012, 07:28 AM   #15
kueks29
Private First Class
kueks29's Avatar
Germany
1
Rep
101
Posts

Drives: BMW E90 M3
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Anywhere

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
So both M4 and M2 will have 6 cylinder engines? I don't think. The N55 is a heavy engine. An M2 with 360 PS from a 2.2l I4, with a more rev friendly engine, much lighter and with better balance would make the M2 remarkably better than the M235i. It would be like an M3 CSL in terms of power, weight, size and of course handling, but even better thanks to higher torque.

The 1M is not much more powerful than the 135i however it is by far a better handling car. The same goes for the M2 vs. M235i. The 1 Series with N54/N55 feels nose heavy compared to the 3 Series with this engine. In fact a 128i E82 has a better handling than the 135i E82, just not the straight line performance, but also better response and sound. The N55 is not rev-friendly as it has longer stoke, what is not the case of the S63 stroke, which is undersquared, so more rev-friendly, what an M should be about.
Let us just yesterday and today and mix a little look into the crystal ball:

So far, M3 and M5 a unique position with its engines.
On the 3-series, there were 4 - and 6-cylinder engines and the V8 in the M3 was a unique feature. Similarly, at the 5-series, there were 4 -, 6 - and 8-cylinder, and the V10 was reserved for the M5.
Since the 1-series but it was already 6-cylinder, just had to take a higher performance i6 the spearhead for a V8 was out of the question.

Today, the M5 has only a V8, which is also available in the series. The M3 will get a V6 with 3.3 liters, which will also eventually be found next to the M4 in the Z4M and X3M place. But even here there are 6-cylinder in the standard models.
In this respect remain the 1M or M2 get a 2.2-I4 ... he will be uprated to a 3.0 i6.

Looking now again back in history, one can also speculate even know how it could look Performance-wise:
1985 M5 (E28) 286 hp
1986 M3 (E30) 195 hp
1988 M5 (E34) 315 hp
1989 M3 (E30) 215 hp
1990 M3 (E30) 238 hp
1992 M3 (E36) 286 hp
1992 M5 (E34) 340 hp
1996 M3 (E36) 321 hp
1998 M5 (E39) 400 hp
2000 M3 (E46) 343 hp
2005 M5 (E60) 507 hp
2007 M3 (E90) 420 hp
2011 M5 (F10) 560 hp
There were always between 60 hp and 100 hp difference between M3 and M5. As cross-talk could be about 80 hp of the E60 and E90 voted yes on almost.
Since the new M5 has 560 hp and should follow the tradition of the M3, then you can go from 460 hp to 480 hp.
If the next 1M or M2 join the ranks there, he will certainly make between 380 hp and 400 hp and it will not be able to use 2.2 i4.
Appreciate 0
      04-03-2012, 07:34 AM   #16
Uli_HH
Lieutenant
Uli_HH's Avatar
Germany
47
Rep
572
Posts

Drives: AW M3 E90)/ 523i Touring
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hamburg Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
So both M4 and M2 will have 6 cylinder engines? I don't think. The N55 is a heavy engine. An M2 with 360 PS from a 2.2l I4, with a more rev friendly engine, much lighter and with better balance would make the M2 remarkably better than the M235i. It would be like an M3 CSL in terms of power, weight, size and of course handling, but even better thanks to higher torque.

The 1M is not much more powerful than the 135i however it is by far a better handling car. The same goes for the M2 vs. M235i. The 1 Series with N54/N55 feels nose heavy compared to the 3 Series with this engine. In fact a 128i E82 has a better handling than the 135i E82, just not the straight line performance, but also better response and sound. The N55 is not rev-friendly as it has longer stoke, what is not the case of the S63 stroke, which is undersquared, so more rev-friendly, what an M should be about.
+1 ... I also think the coming M2 would get an highly developed 2.2ltr.I4 with an modified TriTurbo-System from the N57-S ... this was an engine which could be very light and compact and therefor outperform easily every N55 derivate. The performence of this engine would be so great that none would think about that ist only an 4 banger and have 2 cylinders less than the 135i/M135i ... the N55 isnīt the best option for an real sports car as F30 328i vs 335i shows!

Its simply the best strategy for the M-GmbH from performence-, cost- and differentiation-issues.
Appreciate 0
      04-03-2012, 08:04 AM   #17
BMW269
Brigadier General
No_Country
259
Rep
3,897
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

I do not think, and I hope not, that BMW will play the horsepowerwars with the M2. It is more about driving experience. I am to purchase the Subaru BRZ, and the only car I see myself replacing it is some other lightweight 4 cylinder car, like the up coming M2, Z2 or the hopefully coming new Mazda RX-7 or Nissan Silvia. To be a good car the M2 does not need power, thus an I4 is the best option, and if BMW M thinks about the same thing, it will be it, unless they are going to turn it into another "M6", overweighed and overpowered.
Appreciate 0
      04-06-2012, 09:12 AM   #18
dhoggm3
Major
dhoggm3's Avatar
United_States
59
Rep
1,168
Posts

Drives: F80 E93SC M3, F430, 991 GTS
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: York, PA

iTrader: (1)

Yup. Fuel economy. Too bad...
__________________

Never leave a car completely stock!
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2012, 01:05 PM   #19
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Robin_NL's Avatar
Netherlands
458
Rep
5,172
Posts

Drives: AW 1M
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
+1 ... I also think the coming M2 would get an highly developed 2.2ltr.I4 with an modified TriTurbo-System from the N57-S ... this was an engine which could be very light and compact and therefor outperform easily every N55 derivate. The performence of this engine would be so great that none would think about that ist only an 4 banger and have 2 cylinders less than the 135i/M135i ... the N55 isnīt the best option for an real sports car as F30 328i vs 335i shows!

Its simply the best strategy for the M-GmbH from performence-, cost- and differentiation-issues.

LOL!

First BMW F30 Race Car Wins in First Ever Race


Appreciate 0
      04-12-2012, 02:20 PM   #20
BMW269
Brigadier General
No_Country
259
Rep
3,897
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Wait for the 320i TC F30.
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2012, 02:44 PM   #21
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Robin_NL's Avatar
Netherlands
458
Rep
5,172
Posts

Drives: AW 1M
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe

iTrader: (0)

Unfortunately the WTCC 4 cylinder Turbo 320i E90 isn't doing what they expected

Let's hope the F30 (if?) 320 WTCC will do better. The competition is fierce!
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2012, 03:23 PM   #22
mapezzul
Special Agent
mapezzul's Avatar
United_States
29
Rep
1,737
Posts

Drives: Depends on the day!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bavaria

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Unfortunately the WTCC 4 cylinder Turbo 320i E90 isn't doing what they expected

Let's hope the F30 (if?) 320 WTCC will do better. The competition is fierce!
That is running the S2000 compliant 1.6l Prince motor. It is more that the teams competing are all privateers now and they were not investing as much as in the past to keep things competitive as the E90 chassis was dated and the new car (F30) will require a significant initial investment from the teams.

Correct me if I am wrong but aren't the drivers not as renowned in the BMW cars as they once were?
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:28 AM.




f80post
f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST