BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > BMW M3 (F80) and BMW M4 (F82) General Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-25-2013, 04:08 PM   #1
swamp2
Major General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 9,565
iTrader: (1)

BMWs weight figure almost certainly includes the pricey/optional CSiC brakes

BIMMERPOST
     Featured on BIMMERPOST.com
Here is the "proof":

From the main thread,
Quote:
BMW clarifies that "the new model is now around 80 kilograms [176 lbs] lighter than a comparably equipped predecessor model"
3305 lb + 68 kg driver + 7 kg cargo = 3471 lb

It is well documented that the M5/6 saves 20 kg for CSiC brakes. Thus for a COMPARABLY equipped car we can assume 3306 is with CSiC brakes and thus without them adds another 44 lb to the above. We then have 3515 lb

3704 (E92 M3) - 3515 = 189 lb = 86 kg.

Close enough to "around 80" for me to call this a decided point.

"Less than 3306 lb" means including the brake option. These are a whopping $9250 for the M5 and M6. What will they run for the M4, perhaps around $6k???

I know it is marketing but things like this piss me off. At least they are being mostly honest and transparent with this 80 kg clue...
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
swamp2 is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 04:20 PM   #2
signes
Brigadier General
 
signes's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spinnin at 8k

Posts: 3,980
iTrader: (3)

So basically need to spend ~$6-8k to get ~25% of the quoted weight savings? Hope that is not true but suspect you are right. Tricky wording working around the "comparably equipped predecessor" language since the E9x never had the option of CC brakes.

Separate topic - wonder what the weight difference will be between an M3 and M4...
__________________
08 E90 | Jet Black / Black | 6MT
Mods: RAC RG63 w/ Pirelli Corsa 255F/285R | Akrapovic Evo Exhaust | OEM Blacklines
Winter Setup: OEM 18s w/ Nokian Hakkapeliita R 245/40-18
signes is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 04:25 PM   #3
Needsdecaf
Everything's Bigger in Texas!
 
Drives: Porsche Tractor
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: The Woodlands, TX

Posts: 1,581
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by signes View Post
So basically need to spend ~$6-8k to get ~25% of the quoted weight savings? Hope that is not true but suspect you are right. Tricky wording working around the "comparably equipped predecessor" language since the E9x never had the option of CC brakes.

Separate topic - wonder what the weight difference will be between an M3 and M4...
No.

THey have said COMPARABLY EQUIPPED you will save 80 kilos.
Needsdecaf is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 04:27 PM   #4
signes
Brigadier General
 
signes's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spinnin at 8k

Posts: 3,980
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
No.

THey have said COMPARABLY EQUIPPED you will save 80 kilos.
I understand that. But then quote the figure of "below 1500 kg" for the F8x. You can't have both.
__________________
08 E90 | Jet Black / Black | 6MT
Mods: RAC RG63 w/ Pirelli Corsa 255F/285R | Akrapovic Evo Exhaust | OEM Blacklines
Winter Setup: OEM 18s w/ Nokian Hakkapeliita R 245/40-18
signes is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 04:30 PM   #5
Needsdecaf
Everything's Bigger in Texas!
 
Drives: Porsche Tractor
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: The Woodlands, TX

Posts: 1,581
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by signes View Post
I understand that. But then quote the figure of "below 1500 kg" for the F8x. You can't have both.
Understood. You said you'd need to spend $$ to "get the weight savings" not "get to 1500 kilos".

For me, 1500 kilos is really not important. People seemed to be pretty jacked off about it, and that's wonderful....except when you realize that what pretty much everyone is arguing about is true. Curb weight, gross weight, EU weight, whatever, it's lies, damned lies and statistics. Hell, we know Ferrari lies, cheats and steals to get "the numbers" where they want, it's all malarky.

What's really important:

Engine is 10 kilos lighter than S65
Overall car, comparably equipped, is 80 kilos lighter than E9X.

Otherwise, there are just too many variables to ponder and, like MPG results, are really a meaningless number.
Needsdecaf is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 04:59 PM   #6
signes
Brigadier General
 
signes's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spinnin at 8k

Posts: 3,980
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Understood. You said you'd need to spend $$ to "get the weight savings" not "get to 1500 kilos".

For me, 1500 kilos is really not important. People seemed to be pretty jacked off about it, and that's wonderful....except when you realize that what pretty much everyone is arguing about is true. Curb weight, gross weight, EU weight, whatever, it's lies, damned lies and statistics. Hell, we know Ferrari lies, cheats and steals to get "the numbers" where they want, it's all malarky.

What's really important:

Engine is 10 kilos lighter than S65
Overall car, comparably equipped, is 80 kilos lighter than E9X.

Otherwise, there are just too many variables to ponder and, like MPG results, are really a meaningless number.
My point was that the only way to get a car with the target weight would be to spend the money on CC brakes. I doubt the take rate will be very high on these if pricing is in line with typical cost - I know I won't be spending $8k on them. So for me, the max weight savings over the E9x will be ~60 kg. Still admirable but not all that great either. Not too wound up about 1500 kg as an absolute number.
__________________
08 E90 | Jet Black / Black | 6MT
Mods: RAC RG63 w/ Pirelli Corsa 255F/285R | Akrapovic Evo Exhaust | OEM Blacklines
Winter Setup: OEM 18s w/ Nokian Hakkapeliita R 245/40-18
signes is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 05:06 PM   #7
Needsdecaf
Everything's Bigger in Texas!
 
Drives: Porsche Tractor
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: The Woodlands, TX

Posts: 1,581
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by signes View Post
My point was that the only way to get a car with the target weight would be to spend the money on CC brakes. I doubt the take rate will be very high on these if pricing is in line with typical cost - I know I won't be spending $8k on them. So for me, the max weight savings over the E9x will be ~60 kg. Still admirable but not all that great either. Not too wound up about 1500 kg as an absolute number.
You're talking two different things.

If you are talking about getting the target weight, then likely yes, it is a stripper with carbon brakes.

However, BMW has said comparably equipped, the difference is 80 kilos. Meaning on two cars with steel brakes, the difference will be 80 kilos.

So why do you think you need to spend $ on carbon brakes to get the 80 kilo savings?
Needsdecaf is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 06:12 PM   #8
turbo8765
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: US

Posts: 235
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Here is the "proof":

From the main thread,

3305 lb + 68 kg driver + 7 kg cargo = 3471 lb

It is well documented that the M5/6 saves 20 kg for CSiC brakes. Thus for a COMPARABLY equipped car we can assume 3306 is with CSiC brakes and thus without them adds another 44 lb to the above. We then have 3515 lb

3704 (E92 M3) - 3515 = 189 lb = 86 kg.

Close enough to "around 80" for me to call this a decided point.

"Less than 3306 lb" means including the brake option. These are a whopping $9250 for the M5 and M6. What will they run for the M4, perhaps around $6k???

I know it is marketing but things like this piss me off. At least they are being mostly honest and transparent with this 80 kg clue...
I don't believe BMW would use the phrase "comparably equipped" and include a VERY expensive add on not available on the e92.

I think it's 80kg minus another 20kg if you go with the expensive ceramics.
turbo8765 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 06:13 PM   #9
caneaddict
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: United States

Posts: 43
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Here is the "proof":

From the main thread,

3305 lb + 68 kg driver + 7 kg cargo = 3471 lb

It is well documented that the M5/6 saves 20 kg for CSiC brakes. Thus for a COMPARABLY equipped car we can assume 3306 is with CSiC brakes and thus without them adds another 44 lb to the above. We then have 3515 lb

3704 (E92 M3) - 3515 = 189 lb = 86 kg.

Close enough to "around 80" for me to call this a decided point.

"Less than 3306 lb" means including the brake option. These are a whopping $9250 for the M5 and M6. What will they run for the M4, perhaps around $6k???

I know it is marketing but things like this piss me off. At least they are being mostly honest and transparent with this 80 kg clue...
Another possible explanation for the 50- 60lb weight differential is the manual transmission. I believe that the 1500kg number is with a manual and the 3704 weight for the e90 (thus the extrapolated 3528lb for the f82) might include DCT.
caneaddict is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 06:33 PM   #10
WallieX5
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: X5, 535i XDrive
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: MD

Posts: 41
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Here is the "proof":
...

"Less than 3306 lb" means including the brake option. These are a whopping $9250 for the M5 and M6. What will they run for the M4, perhaps around $6k???

I know it is marketing but things like this piss me off. At least they are being mostly honest and transparent with this 80 kg clue...
The "marketing" has been stripped away for you by BMW when they said a comparably equipped car. It is irrelevant if it includes carbon brakes or not because the delta will still be the same as long as they're comparably equipped.

The new car is only 80kg lighter whether one gets a stripper or a fully loaded car.

On the bright side, the new car is more powerful, bigger, and "better" than the car it replaces and still manages to be lighter. I doubt that there are very many current models that are lighter than the models they replaced especially if they grew in size and power.
WallieX5 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 06:38 PM   #11
cambit
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2013 BMW M3 COUPE
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: San Francisco, CA

Posts: 127
iTrader: (0)

dont believe anything until a shop takes an M4 and puts it on a scale.
cambit is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 08:24 PM   #12
swamp2
Major General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 9,565
iTrader: (1)

Yes guys, I've sort of overlooked the "comparably equipped" language. If one takes that strictly literally it means I must be wrong.

However, I am jaded by multiple BMW product launches and "cleverness in business" type of statements they have made and continue to make. We all heard it right here in this forum all about the "weight reduction" in the E92. What happened was actually many good efforts to counter a massive weight gain. The result was a large net weight gain. Marketing, marketing, marketing...

As pointed out above I guess only time (and a good scale) will tell. I just don't see how with very the modest use of CF (and magnesium, etc.) they obtained ~3300 (less driver) without the 40 or so pounds of savings the CSiC brakes provide.

However, if you also give BMW a "pass" on using different weight reporting standards for production cars and pre production ones then that is certainly your right. How many folks have been absolutely slack jawed now about 3300 lb comparing that directly to 3700. We've seen post after post here of this.

Anyone want to make a friendly wager on the topic? In short my contention would be that a roughly 3300 lb F82 M4 must have CSiC brakes.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
swamp2 is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 09:13 PM   #13
GregW / Oregon
Commander-In-Chief
 
Drives: 2008 M3 Coupe, 2012 ML350
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Lake Oswego, OR

Posts: 6,776
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Weights & brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by caneaddict View Post
Another possible explanation for the 50- 60lb weight differential is the manual transmission. I believe that the 1500kg number is with a manual and the 3704 weight for the e90 (thus the extrapolated 3528lb for the f82) might include DCT.
BMWNA would not include DCT in their base quoted curb weight (3,704), I don't believe. Anyone have figures on weight difference between E9X manual and DCT trannies? I think it was over 100 lbs.

Second point, carbon ceramic brakes do not just save weight, they save UNSPRUNG weight, the best kind. That means the suspension is more responsive and acceleration is even slightly influenced, in addition to fade-free braking. Even though I don't plan to track much, I might go for these if they are in the $6k or less range.
__________________

Greg Lake Oswego, Oregon, USA
2008 M3 Coupe - Alpine/Fox Red/Carbon
2015 M4 pre-ordered 4/13
GregW / Oregon is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 09:50 PM   #14
sparkyg
Brigadier General
 
sparkyg's Avatar
 
Drives: EBII 2014 F31 328xi
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oil Country

Posts: 3,483
iTrader: (5)

I wouldnt touch CSiC brakes with a 40 foot pole.

I'd rather drop the money on a real set of brakes that also have day-day practicality.

I dont trust BMW marketing. The 3300 lb car I bet has lots of lightweight options and a manual transmission, prob stripped too so no fancy suspension and no nav.
sparkyg is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 10:04 PM   #15
GregW / Oregon
Commander-In-Chief
 
Drives: 2008 M3 Coupe, 2012 ML350
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Lake Oswego, OR

Posts: 6,776
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkyg View Post
I wouldnt touch CSiC brakes with a 40 foot pole.

I'd rather drop the money on a real set of brakes that also have day-day practicality.
Day-to-day practicality is not moving an extra 10 lbs or so per corner up and down with every bump. That being said, they have to be quiet and long lasting, obviously.
__________________

Greg Lake Oswego, Oregon, USA
2008 M3 Coupe - Alpine/Fox Red/Carbon
2015 M4 pre-ordered 4/13
GregW / Oregon is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 10:09 PM   #16
sparkyg
Brigadier General
 
sparkyg's Avatar
 
Drives: EBII 2014 F31 328xi
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oil Country

Posts: 3,483
iTrader: (5)

You can get 5 lbs a corner with good Brembos so 10 is prob out of the question but wait till someone chips their CSiC brake and they gotta replace it for $3k.

Like I said, no way for all the pain. I do agree it is the lightest though.

So far on the M5/M6 cars it hasn't sown any value due to the pig weight of the car. Maybe the lighter M3/M4 their will be a bigger benefit.
sparkyg is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 10:13 PM   #17
GregW / Oregon
Commander-In-Chief
 
Drives: 2008 M3 Coupe, 2012 ML350
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Lake Oswego, OR

Posts: 6,776
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkyg View Post
You can get 5 lbs a corner with good Brembos so 10 is prob out of the question but wait till someone chips their CSiC brake and they gotta replace it for $3k.

Like I said, no way for all the pain. I do agree it is the lightest though.

So far on the M5/M6 cars it hasn't sown any value due to the pig weight of the car. Maybe the lighter M3/M4 their will be a bigger benefit.
I used 10 because the quoted savings on the M5 is 44 lbs total. Benefit is one that can be felt in handling (how much do we spend on saving 3 or 4 lbs per wheel on forge wheels?), which likely is more evident on a car that already is lighter and handles better.
__________________

Greg Lake Oswego, Oregon, USA
2008 M3 Coupe - Alpine/Fox Red/Carbon
2015 M4 pre-ordered 4/13
GregW / Oregon is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 10:14 PM   #18
swamp2
Major General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 9,565
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
Anyone have figures on weight difference between E9X manual and DCT trannies? I think it was over 100 lbs
BMWNA typically lists weights for both transmission options in any car that has them, however, I do not recall if they did so for the E92 M3.

20 kg is the official number. From what I have read both the new MT and new DCT are both lighter so this figure is probably still a reasonable estimate.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
swamp2 is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-25-2013, 11:11 PM   #19
paddy335
Captain
 
Drives: 335i Touring; X5 40d
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: New Zealand

Posts: 806
iTrader: (0)

Just go on a diet and lose 40lbs, and voila, no need to sweat the details.
paddy335 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:54 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST