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      05-22-2012, 11:56 PM   #199
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If it isn't true f1 technology .... And semi recent ie high revving engine turbo or not I dont want it. I love f1 and the higher revs are everything for the driving experience. If its a turbo 6 that revs to ... 7000 that's pretty plain and does not sound special at all. Might as well supercharge my v8
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      05-23-2012, 12:08 AM   #200
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I think only the I6 when I see him standing in the showroom

And that is here spoken of "official" is just a bad joke!

As told by a man from America, BMW AG, which allegedly developed the M-GmbH in Garching.
In return, all employees must sign a contract to M-GmbH, the F80 for the letter "R" (in English "I") and "V" must not be used.
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      05-23-2012, 01:27 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by malter2.0 View Post
Great news! Now waiting for the following news.

-300lb diet
-elimination of turbos
-9000rpm redline
-440hp N/A


And we are set!
Not gonna happen.

More like 150lbs lighter, lagless turbos, 7~8k redline and 450hp F/I which would be so easy to achieve 500hp with less than 800 bucks.
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      05-23-2012, 04:23 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by CPWINCH View Post
i personally was looking forward to a V, im done with these inlines...
Not sure if serious...
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      05-23-2012, 04:58 AM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAL278 View Post
In all seriousness it will probably have 2 twin scroll turbos to keep lag down and up the high end power..
It is not possible for an inline-6 engine to have two twin-scroll turbochargers. It would mean separating 6 cylinder outputs into 4 exhaust paths, which is impossible.

It would not be unconcievable for me that the next M3 would have one small twin-scroll turbocharger (for lag-free operation and powerful low-end) and one large single-scroll turbocharger for top-end power. They can also employ variable geometry turbine for the large turbo, to further optimize the power band. But I am not sure that this configuration can achieve a flat torque curve from like 1200RPM, because the large turbo has no way to begin spinning at that engine speed and the small turbo would have to provide all the torque until 2000RPM which would be quite hard to achieve. But who knows...
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      05-23-2012, 08:21 AM   #204
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What the hell is an F80/F82?
This is F30 M3 or F32 M4 we are talking about right? Why the change in chassis? I am missing something here.
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      05-23-2012, 08:47 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
It is not possible for an inline-6 engine to have two twin-scroll turbochargers. It would mean separating 6 cylinder outputs into 4 exhaust paths, which is impossible.

It would not be unconcievable for me that the next M3 would have one small twin-scroll turbocharger (for lag-free operation and powerful low-end) and one large single-scroll turbocharger for top-end power. They can also employ variable geometry turbine for the large turbo, to further optimize the power band. But I am not sure that this configuration can achieve a flat torque curve from like 1200RPM, because the large turbo has no way to begin spinning at that engine speed and the small turbo would have to provide all the torque until 2000RPM which would be quite hard to achieve. But who knows...
I was thinking the same thing. I'm not so sure they need a "flat" torque curve, however. they just need 300 lb-ft accessible @1200, then slam you with 400-450 lb-ft at about 2500 rpm. This would also make it easier to provide a more linear power rise, so that peak HP is coming more at 6500 instead of 5500, like some of the other turbos. I'm hoping for a 7500 rpm redline.
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      05-23-2012, 08:51 AM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidMal View Post
What the hell is an F80/F82?
This is F30 M3 or F32 M4 we are talking about right? Why the change in chassis? I am missing something here.
For reasons not entirely clear, BMW is using a separate chassis designation for the M3/M4. So the F80/F82 is the M version of the F30/F32. Maybe Jason can illuminate why.
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      05-23-2012, 09:01 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kueks29 View Post
I think only the I6 when I see him standing in the showroom

And that is here spoken of "official" is just a bad joke!

As told by a man from America, BMW AG, which allegedly developed the M-GmbH in Garching.
In return, all employees must sign a contract to M-GmbH, the F80 for the letter "R" (in English "I") and "V" must not be used.
With all due respect, please watch your tone. Both BMW AG and BMW NA are reading Bimmerpost, and I won't let you talk badly about certain people just because their statements go against your information.


Best regards,
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      05-23-2012, 09:32 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
It is not possible for an inline-6 engine to have two twin-scroll turbochargers. It would mean separating 6 cylinder outputs into 4 exhaust paths, which is impossible.

It would not be unconcievable for me that the next M3 would have one small twin-scroll turbocharger (for lag-free operation and powerful low-end) and one large single-scroll turbocharger for top-end power. They can also employ variable geometry turbine for the large turbo, to further optimize the power band. But I am not sure that this configuration can achieve a flat torque curve from like 1200RPM, because the large turbo has no way to begin spinning at that engine speed and the small turbo would have to provide all the torque until 2000RPM which would be quite hard to achieve. But who knows...
That's interesting about twin scrolls not being possible.

With regards to a possible variable geometry turbo, if used at all I bet it would be on the first smaller turbo. That is how BMW's sequential turbo setups work for all their diesel cars and it makes a lot of sense to allow the first turbo to have a wider torque curve to achieve the smooth torque curve that you're talking about.

But what petrol cars use variable geometry turbos besides the 911 Turbo? From what I understand they are much more expensive and BMW's electric assisted turbo concept that has been rumored to be in consideration provides similar functionality, maybe even better functionality. Their concept for the electric turbo is genius.
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      05-23-2012, 09:49 AM   #209
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Seems like it'll be manual only. That's, IMO, as it should be, though I'm sure some folks will disagree.
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      05-23-2012, 09:52 AM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
With all due respect, please watch your tone. Both BMW AG and BMW NA are reading Bimmerpost, and I won't let you talk badly about certain people just because their statements go against your information.


Best regards,
south
Really a??

I love BMW so much. BMW M... please give me the new M6 coupe for free and I want to work at BMW M

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BMW have tapped into this by mirroring typical BMW dynamics and steering communication within the new UKL cars.
You mean massive body roll, a steering system that is not connected to the front wheels, and the engine note played through the speaker system?!?!?!?!
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      05-23-2012, 09:59 AM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna_hp View Post
Their concept for the electric turbo is genius.
yes, so genius that they should rename it a "supercharger"... j/k, i know it's not the same thing, it's not technically belt driven - but it does rob a little crank power to power the motor.

I think it's a great idea, a great solution to a problem that few will ever experience. but really a great way to provide massive gains in power and low-end, with no lag and stay pretty efficient. I don't know if I would call it genius, but I hope it doesn't create any reliability problems.
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      05-23-2012, 10:30 AM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clar View Post
I started my BMW ownership in their creamy smooth I6, but i actually prefer a V6. I6 engines are naturally balanced, making them refine and smooth, but in an M car, those attributes are not so important. I wouldn't describe my S65 as creamy smooth. That would be inappropriate. V6 offers superior packaging advantage due to the reduced length, which if exploited in the initial chassis design, could either improve interior accommodation or reduce overall size.
Don't you worry.
BMW is getting cheap now. They will soon replace all of their I6 with v6. & Next step is all of BMW's V6's are outsourced in China because of cost advantage.

You happy now?
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      05-23-2012, 11:04 AM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
It is not possible for an inline-6 engine to have two twin-scroll turbochargers. It would mean separating 6 cylinder outputs into 4 exhaust paths, which is impossible.

It would not be unconcievable for me that the next M3 would have one small twin-scroll turbocharger (for lag-free operation and powerful low-end) and one large single-scroll turbocharger for top-end power. They can also employ variable geometry turbine for the large turbo, to further optimize the power band. But I am not sure that this configuration can achieve a flat torque curve from like 1200RPM, because the large turbo has no way to begin spinning at that engine speed and the small turbo would have to provide all the torque until 2000RPM which would be quite hard to achieve. But who knows...
Why not? If you look at an I6 as two I3 engines bolted together and you let each back of 3 cylinders run each twin scroll, similar to how the N54 is set up with a single scroll, all you have to do is have an exhaust that is split or have a varible tract for each bank of 3 cylinders. This is a simpler solution than how the exhaust is routed on the diesel tri-turbo engines or what BMW went through to get the V8's turbocharged with the turbos placed in the engine V. Your sequential setup is another good idea.
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      05-23-2012, 11:12 AM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATX78703 View Post
yes, so genius that they should rename it a "supercharger"... j/k, i know it's not the same thing, it's not technically belt driven - but it does rob a little crank power to power the motor.
It definitely should not rob crank power during the times when you want every ounce of power you can get, power to run the electric motor should come from the battery during full throttle.

Also, from the patents and article on bimmerpost, it only described the electric motor as going into generator mode when the turbo was reaching peak capacity and when a regular turbo would normally start opening its wastegate, but I don't understand why it couldn't be engineered to be in generator mode during normal highway cruising. There is so much waste energy leaving through the exhaust system. Include a bigger turbine to capture more of it, and when you don't need the extra boost run the electric motor in generator mode to charge the batteries and power electrical systems. Then when you want to accelerate, you'll also already have more turbine torque on tap with close to zero lag because the torque is already there, you just have to wait a couple microseconds while the electric motor stops resisting the turbo to generate electricity. If that makes sense.

Like you say, can they make it reliable. Also, is it superior to and/or cheaper than a variable geometry turbo or twin sequential turbo setup.
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      05-23-2012, 12:21 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
I wonder if bmw has enough balls to put a money back guarantee on the next FI M3, for limp mode problems.

If owners start having overheating problems during track sessions. The internet forums will blow up. I really hope they have it figured out, or be prepared for a sh*t storm.

Even their most recent M example the f10 M5 has been going into limp mode in reviews.
The limp mode in the M5 was bc of a specific chain of events, and has been rectified. I have experienced the new M5 in many hot laps on a plus 30 grad day, no issues. The same thing was said when the X5/X6 M came to market- drove that in Atlanta on a near 100 degree day with many laps and no issues.

The original non-ZSP equipped 335i is the only car that I have ever had issues with heat.

The new M3 is being tested to make sure these things are not a concern.... I am confident in the engineers.
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      05-23-2012, 12:21 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan135 View Post
Why not? If you look at an I6 as two I3 engines bolted together and you let each back of 3 cylinders run each twin scroll, similar to how the N54 is set up with a single scroll, all you have to do is have an exhaust that is split or have a varible tract for each bank of 3 cylinders. This is a simpler solution than how the exhaust is routed on the diesel tri-turbo engines or what BMW went through to get the V8's turbocharged with the turbos placed in the engine V. Your sequential setup is another good idea.
It can be done....
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      05-23-2012, 12:37 PM   #217
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One possibility is to fill the gap between the 3.0T and 4.4TT with a new displacement, probably 3.2 or 3.5 in either T or TT form, with all the DI Valvetronic gadgets. This new engine could replace the 3.0T later on with more power and better economy, as the N20 @-28i producing 245hp/350NM is so close to the low tune 3.0T N55 already, and the next step up is the relatively large 4.4TT.

Or if there is no use for this, a totally unique 3.0l with the totally new turbo /electric technology that has been mentioned. This would be the 'efficient dynamics' route, starting a whole new branch of engine technologies.
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      05-23-2012, 01:43 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
The new M3 is being tested to make sure these things are not a concern.... I am confident in the engineers.
I am willing to bet I can get it to limp mode. I drive my na M3 hard as sh*t, never missed a session. While the same track days my buddies dct 335is limp modes frequently.

I am not so confident.
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      05-23-2012, 02:00 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
I am willing to bet I can get it to limp mode. I drive my na M3 hard as sh*t, never missed a session. While the same track days my buddies dct 335is limp modes frequently.

I am not so confident.
Agreed. Particularly on very hot days. Particularly at altitude. It'll happen. Has even happened to the new M5 already.

So i6 confirmed eh? N55 successor anyone? I picture an N55 with clutch-controlled electric turbo, better cooling, and a massive tune. 7000rpm.
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      05-23-2012, 03:08 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan135 View Post
Why not? If you look at an I6 as two I3 engines bolted together and you let each back of 3 cylinders run each twin scroll, similar to how the N54 is set up with a single scroll, all you have to do is have an exhaust that is split or have a varible tract for each bank of 3 cylinders.
The purpose of a twin-scroll setup is to completely separate exhaust pulses from different pairs/sets of cylinders and use some of the gained energy (that would be lost if the cylinder exhaust paths would communicate) to feed the turbocharger with more efficiency. If you mix the pulses from 3 cylinders before splitting them up again to feed the twin-scroll, you cancel the twin-scroll concept.
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