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      05-23-2012, 04:36 PM   #221
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I will miss the V8.... like I missed the V10!
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      05-23-2012, 04:50 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Those are great cars you mention, but I would suggest that you read up on the technical details of the McLaren MP4-12C. Sure, this is a super car, but if you look at M history, they have been able to deliver an arguably exotic chassis and drivetrain in an every-man's car.
The significant thing about M is that the standard car must meet a high standard of chassis development before it is even considered to be called an M. If you look at the 3er , 5er and X5 and X6 they are the benchmark in the segment. The perfect balance of dynamics and driver communication and the perfect base to become an M product.

What makes M stand out more than their Audi RS and Mercedes-Benz AMG competitors is that they are more innovative and more experimental.
So they have image building sports cars but with a BMW image is not required , a BMW customer knows what they will get and what is engineered in every BMW is decades of passion , precision and that unique character a fine balance of communication and dynamics and that is with every BMW, BMW are not select , every BMW must have that unique DNA which brings that precison of the Ultimate Driving Machine.
Think of the innovative factors of BMW M especially in bringing CFRP to a 3er and you can see how M is more experimental than its competitors.

One of the interesting aspects of M is that they have limits , they can only go far whether financially or from a technical stand point, but they still excell.
They might not have the expansive resources as VAG but that is actually good because no matter what you have in terms of VAGs resources they still manage to Fuck up! and especially where it matters... Driver Communication.

Audi are in the midst of trying to imitate BMW that they fail to grasp what makes a BMW and now at the eve of the forthcoming revolution at BMW namely the advent of FWD. Which underlines BMW's strengths by adapting what makes a great RWD BMW and applying this to a FWD concept.
having sampled BMW's adaptation of FWD it is a revolution , its BMW's take on FWD and driver communication is not lost in the translation.
Audi should be concerned , if the best it can manage is "Average".
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      05-23-2012, 10:02 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
I am willing to bet I can get it to limp mode. I drive my na M3 hard as sh*t, never missed a session. While the same track days my buddies dct 335is limp modes frequently.

I am not so confident.
Not to argue on a car which is not even developed yet but there is a N54 engined car which is actually developed by M engineers and lots of them being tracked extensively since 1 year. The 1M, which is obviously also a test for following FI M cars. Can you search how many times did 1Ms get in limp mode including heavily tracked ones please. The result you will come up may surprise you and also other people who are rightfully skeptical on this point.

I am not saying it can't get in limp mode or won't get but maybe it already is not that big of a problem. And as you put it your buddy has a 335is not an M car, also a DCT which is arguably the part of limp issue so can't serve as a base for M cars, present or future.
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      05-24-2012, 12:53 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo
I don't understand why it has to come to S65 vs. N54 or turbo vs. NA all the time. At the time of E46 M3 CSL (maybe the best M car of all time imo) BMW felt like they reached the limits of NA inline sixes and they increased the displacement and number of cylinders with V8 M3 and V10 M5. It was first the M5 and the S65 was just a development of the V10 with 2 less cylinders. It is just the same scheme, same play all over again, first the F10 M5 with a twin turbo eight cylinder replacing the NA V10 and now an inline six twin turbo replacing the NA V8 in their respective models. Why is it a shock even? BMW know what they are doing but some people in these forums don't seem to have a clue about why they are whining just because they are hallucinating with a beautiful engine noise. Even Bugatti Veyron has four turbos if I remember correctly and only Lambo and Ferrari makes great and capable NA engines today, but can we or should we afford one Lambo or Ferrari unless we live in Cote d'Azur?

And when is the last time BMW disappointed drivers with a new M3?
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      05-24-2012, 01:03 AM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klammer
Can't wait to see what they bring to bear, and am sure will not be disappointed. My ONLY concern is limp mode on track. I'm not talking about warm-up, hot-lap, cool-down. I'm talking 90+ heat, open lapping for 20-30 minutes a session, multiple sessions, and be ok... This plagues all turbo cars (to date) but hopefully this is where the M division has turned the tables. I want to track my M, or else I would have bought an AMG
Yeah my 1M overheats on me all the time.
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      05-24-2012, 01:11 AM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
I am willing to bet I can get it to limp mode. I drive my na M3 hard as sh*t, never missed a session. While the same track days my buddies dct 335is limp modes frequently.

I am not so confident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan
Agreed. Particularly on very hot days. Particularly at altitude. It'll happen. Has even happened to the new M5 already.

So i6 confirmed eh? N55 successor anyone? I picture an N55 with clutch-controlled electric turbo, better cooling, and a massive tune. 7000rpm.


Sure wish you two had been at high plains raceway in Denver last weekend on friday afternoon when it was 88 degrees.

I had to keep limping my 1M down the straight at 130 mph. It was even worse on Sunday when I pulled on an e90 M3 on the back straight... Hitting 5mph higher than Friday.

:wink:

That's ok though, there is still time. I challenge both of you -oops, all THREE of you, you are invited as well Klammer- to come to Texas this summer and go to the track with me.
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      05-24-2012, 01:23 AM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
The significant thing about M is that the standard car must meet a high standard of chassis development before it is even considered to be called an M. If you look at the 3er , 5er and X5 and X6 they are the benchmark in the segment. The perfect balance of dynamics and driver communication and the perfect base to become an M product.

What makes M stand out more than their Audi RS and Mercedes-Benz AMG competitors is that they are more innovative and more experimental.
So they have image building sports cars but with a BMW image is not required , a BMW customer knows what they will get and what is engineered in every BMW is decades of passion , precision and that unique character a fine balance of communication and dynamics and that is with every BMW, BMW are not select , every BMW must have that unique DNA which brings that precison of the Ultimate Driving Machine.
Think of the innovative factors of BMW M especially in bringing CFRP to a 3er and you can see how M is more experimental than its competitors.

One of the interesting aspects of M is that they have limits , they can only go far whether financially or from a technical stand point, but they still excell.
They might not have the expansive resources as VAG but that is actually good because no matter what you have in terms of VAGs resources they still manage to Fuck up! and especially where it matters... Driver Communication.

Audi are in the midst of trying to imitate BMW that they fail to grasp what makes a BMW and now at the eve of the forthcoming revolution at BMW namely the advent of FWD. Which underlines BMW's strengths by adapting what makes a great RWD BMW and applying this to a FWD concept.
having sampled BMW's adaptation of FWD it is a revolution , its BMW's take on FWD and driver communication is not lost in the translation.
Audi should be concerned , if the best it can manage is "Average".

A great example is the Audi RS5. They had 3 years to build a better car than the M3. They failed hard.

I like BMW. I love M. I adore the M3. I'm on my 4th M3. It's delicious.
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      05-24-2012, 01:59 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
If you look at the 3er , 5er and X5 and X6 they are the benchmark in the segment.
5-Series isn't the benchmark. It's too heavy. A6 and GS both are better driving machines than F10. Same is true about X5 and X6. Cayenne is words better than both.
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      05-24-2012, 07:40 AM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
I am willing to bet I can get it to limp mode. I drive my na M3 hard as sh*t, never missed a session. While the same track days my buddies dct 335is limp modes frequently.

I am not so confident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan
Agreed. Particularly on very hot days. Particularly at altitude. It'll happen. Has even happened to the new M5 already.

So i6 confirmed eh? N55 successor anyone? I picture an N55 with clutch-controlled electric turbo, better cooling, and a massive tune. 7000rpm.


Sure wish you two had been at high plains raceway in Denver last weekend on friday afternoon when it was 88 degrees.

I had to keep limping my 1M down the straight at 130 mph. It was even worse on Sunday when I pulled on an e90 M3 on the back straight... Hitting 5mph higher than Friday.

:wink:

That's ok though, there is still time. I challenge both of you -oops, all THREE of you, you are invited as well Klammer- to come to Texas this summer and go to the track with me.
It's a legitimate concern when I'm looking at 20-30 track days a year. Not 2-3... And maybe I'll take you up on your offer and come down to Texas just to prove a point, pick a date. Just because YOU don't have issues doesn't mean they don't exist and I don't appreciate being laughed at for asking or being concerned with a legit issues, but it's cool, I accept your challenge. Time & date please
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      05-24-2012, 07:46 AM   #230
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Quote:
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[bpnews="Official: BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Brings Back the Inline 6 Engine"]Whether the F80 M3's inline 6 will feature two or three turbos remains to be seen. An earlier BMW filed turbo patent shows that the company has developed (or is developing) electric turbo technology; so a bi-turbo or tri-turbo inline 6 engine could possibly see the implementation of one or more electric turbos. However many turbos is ultimately decided upon by BMW, we think that its power figure may be somewhere in the ballpark of 450 HP.
FYI, the most recent issue of the German car magazine "auto motor sport" says that it will be a twin turbo setup, similar to the N54.

My guess it will be a mix of N55 and N54, the latter for the two turbos and the cast-aluminium engine block, and the former for the twin scroll and valvetronic technology.

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      05-24-2012, 07:54 AM   #231
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dare I say us "enthusiasts" are almost as crazy with the speculation as the damn apple clan? hehe
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      05-24-2012, 09:32 AM   #232
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Quote:
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Inline 6 FTW!!!
+1
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It's one thing for some buffoon to put an M badge on something that doesn't deserve it...it's another for a multi-billion dollar corporation to do the exact same thing and keep a straight face.
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      05-24-2012, 11:04 AM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
FYI, the most recent issue of the German car magazine "auto motor sport" says that it will be a twin turbo setup, similar to the N54.

My guess it will be a mix of N55 and N54, the latter for the two turbos and the cast-aluminium engine block, and the former for the twin scroll and valvetronic technology.

Alpina_B3_Lux
"Twin turbo setup similar to the N54" as in a pair of traditional turbochargers in parallel?

As opposed to a sequential setup or a setup involving variable geometry or electric turbos
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      05-24-2012, 11:17 AM   #234
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"Twin turbo setup similar to the N54" as in a pair of traditional turbochargers in parallel?

As opposed to a sequential setup or a setup involving variable geometry or electric turbos
That was unfortunately not specified, but I would assume it means the first option you mentioned.

VTG turbos would be cool, but I don't think we'll see them in the M3 as the maintenance costs are prohibitive.

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      05-24-2012, 11:20 AM   #235
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It's a legitimate concern when I'm looking at 20-30 track days a year. Not 2-3... And maybe I'll take you up on your offer and come down to Texas just to prove a point, pick a date. Just because YOU don't have issues doesn't mean they don't exist and I don't appreciate being laughed at for asking or being concerned with a legit issues, but it's cool, I accept your challenge. Time & date please

I bought my 1M in september last year.

Since then it has done

Barber motorsports Park - 6 sessions on Sunday, the last day of Ofest 2011
Texas World Speedway -2 days
Eagles Canyon Raceway - 6-7 days (I am a member at this track)
Harris Hill Road - Austin TX - 1 day
Motorsport Ranch - 3.1 Cresson - 2 days
High Plains Raceway - 3 days
I am going back to MSR Cresson on June second
next up is Flat Out at Heartland park in June 8-10 I bet it will be HOT there... although not as hot as in TX!

so... It looks like we track our cars a similar amount right?

before the end of the year I will likely be at Road Atlanta and I will be at Ofest. I have driven Road America and would love to get up there this year as well but I don't think it will be in the cards. by the way... Badger Bimmers Chief instructor Mike Clemens has a 1M... look him up ...


So don't take it personal, but YES you are being laughed at... sorry... because you need to quit thinking about the 335 when we are discussing *M* cars. you **know*** they are apples and oranges... so why compare ?


Are you happy with your M car? Anyone in this forum unhappy with their M car? We ALL love M cars... and we all know they are designed to be taken to the track..... However...it's amazing at all the " doubts" because of an issue with a NON M car.

BMW M engineers ain't fools Yo! but yet everyone has to come on to a web forurm and * second guess* them....
So for all of you doing that...... here's your sign.





The 1M is the clear benchmark for the new M.... go to any event near you and you will see plenty of 1Ms being tracked.. without issue!
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Last edited by M3 Adjuster; 05-24-2012 at 01:39 PM. Reason: forgot I ran harris Hill road also
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      05-24-2012, 12:42 PM   #236
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That's ok, will be up at road America in 2 weeks, will be on the lookout, but still have not seen one 1m on track. I'm not complaining or bitching or being argumentative, just expressing a concern that seems valid based on other non BMW turbos that I've seem have problems (evos, gtr, turboed miatas, etc) and yes the 335i on track. Someone's a bit defensive
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      05-24-2012, 01:21 PM   #237
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5-Series isn't the benchmark. It's too heavy. A6 and GS both are better driving machines than F10. Same is true about X5 and X6. Cayenne is words better than both.
LOL @ A6 bathtub and totally numb GS being better driver car than F10. I mean really...LOL.
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      05-24-2012, 01:23 PM   #238
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That's ok, will be up at road America in 2 weeks, will be on the lookout, but still have not seen one 1m on track. I'm not complaining or bitching or being argumentative, just expressing a concern that seems valid based on other non BMW turbos that I've seem have problems (evos, gtr, turboed miatas, etc) and yes the 335i on track. Someone's a bit defensive
I got $100 on Klammer.
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      05-24-2012, 01:34 PM   #239
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That's ok, will be up at road America in 2 weeks, will be on the lookout, but still have not seen one 1m on track. I'm not complaining or bitching or being argumentative, just expressing a concern that seems valid based on other non BMW turbos that I've seem have problems (evos, gtr, turboed miatas, etc) and yes the 335i on track. Someone's a bit defensive
I don't think you are being argumentative at all. and I am nope... not defensive.. but rather OFFENSIVE! .
I am just trying to educate many of you that are apparently not operating from an INFORMED perspective. and let me tell ya, it's HARD WORK!

So now that you know better.... let's not hear you say limp mode and M car until you personally SEE it happen? There is no reason to perpetuate a myth and now you have every reason not to. . As far as no 1Ms on track in the area... really odd. Every event I have been to in the last year there were three or more. There were 6-8 in Denver at HPR, 3 at harrris hill road in TX in March, 6 at the Lone Star Chapter event at Cresson in April etc..

Keep in mind that the events I have run are BMW CCA events... perhaps you are running events with other organizations..


Looks like the closest I will be to you will be Ofest at Mid Ohio... Come on by and I'll " buy" you a Spaten.

Should you decide to come south for an event... I'll be happy to meet up!
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      05-24-2012, 01:48 PM   #240
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LOL @ A6 bathtub and totally numb GS being better driver car than F10. I mean really...LOL.
A fanboyish kind of comment. Go drive the three cars, and then come and tell this again. lol at the numb and bathtub nick names, judging before trying.

F10 is heavy, quite heavy. Has a soulless steering. And it's suspension is too soft. Some people like it, and the sale numbers show it but definitely it is NOT the ultimate driving machine.
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      05-24-2012, 01:58 PM   #241
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A fanboyish kind of comment. Go drive the three cars, and then come and tell this again. lol at the numb and bathtub nick names, judging before trying.

F10 is heavy, quite heavy. Has a soulless steering. And it's suspension is too soft. Some people like it, and the sale numbers show it but definitely it is NOT the ultimate driving machine.
Blah blah blah - "fanboy".

I use to own an A6, and I have driven a new one. Have driven an older GS, but not the new one. Have yet to drive any Audi or Japanese car that even has the steering feel of my wife's 09 328. That includes my old STi which was around 3200lbs.

The weight argument is nonsense - depending on config, the F10 could be within a 100lbs or so of the A6. It's irrelevant.
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      05-24-2012, 02:20 PM   #242
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Blah blah blah - "fanboy".

I use to own an A6, and I have driven a new one. Have driven an older GS, but not the new one. Have yet to drive any Audi or Japanese car that even has the steering feel of my wife's 09 328. That includes my old STi which was around 3200lbs.

The weight argument is nonsense - depending on config, the F10 could be within a 100lbs or so of the A6. It's irrelevant.
Your wife's 328 has WORLDS better steering feel than F10. You clearly haven't tried F10 or the new GS. It's not that others all of a sudden became too good, it's the 5-Series that made a big jump backwards.
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