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      05-24-2012, 02:34 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soorena View Post
Your wife's 328 has WORLDS better steering feel than F10. You clearly haven't tried F10 or the new GS. It's not that others all of a sudden became too good, it's the 5-Series that made a big jump backwards.
I have driven the F10, or the comparison would make no sense : | I told you I haven't driven the GS - no interest.

At low speeds, the 328 steering is actually heavier and more direct than my M3.

The steering feel in the Audi is still totally non-communicative from my perspective and super-boosted at low-ish speeds. The handling is clearly improved from earlier models. Audi has been working for literally 12+ years trying to get the A6 to drive like a 5 series. I would hope they could close the gap somewhat...anything less would be totally embarrassing; especially with their budget.
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      05-24-2012, 07:41 PM   #244
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      05-25-2012, 04:40 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3alabama View Post
There is more to be missed than simply the fact the turbo will put out more torque and power.
Not really.
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      05-25-2012, 05:37 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3alabama View Post
Does no other m owners or any enthusiasts not value more than power in a car? Even balance, which is what an M is about is only one special characteristic. Does nobody value the following-

1.Having a ONE-OFF engine unique to the m3 which nobody else has access to or no other car uses. Engineered tirelessly (via s85) to have the highest output per litre they ever had and one of the highest in the industry. To have the flattest torque curve in the industry that is flatter than most turbo cars which are the ones typically have fat curves. To rev to 8400 rpms which is bested by only a modern ferrari/lambo.

2.The sound? I don't know about some of you but my m3 is a street car and a very minor part time tracker. Every single day you can listen and enjoy the racing sound of a high strung v8 s65! You often cannot exploit the full power of any car, so I feel having a beautiful noise is half of the daily enjoyment.

Having something in common with F1 tech. A high strung v8 just feels special. Now F1 will go v6 turbo and no longer any link to them even if it was only conceptually.

I dont know. There is more to be missed than simply the fact the turbo will put out more torque and power.

How is the S63tü not exclusive? You lost me there. And the torque curve being flat has more to do with gearing than the engine with the M cars.

The new S engine in F80 will be unique. Last time I checked; outside the S85 and S65 M tuned or worked base BMW AG engines. Hell, the Brabham F1 car used a BMW engine as the base.

The S85/65 were created as part of the F1 marketing budget- ads always pointed to F1- the V10 was created as F1 transitioned out and the V8 was simply built by lopping off two cylinders. There really was little in common with F1 except the high revs and throttle body per cylinder.

Its a shame they used F1 as the marketing model because F1 had little impact on street cars- I wish they would have just done it their own way (like they are doing now), at least then we'd have DI/Valvetronic and get a bit more fuel economy and additional response.

Having recently driven the 4.4l liter version of the S65, I can say that the S63tü is much better suited for daily driving and is much more fun when not running 9/10ths.
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      05-25-2012, 10:11 PM   #247
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Think I'm feeling nostalgic

Not used to seeing M cars in 3rd place, RE driver feel, communication with the road, over-insulation.. and this isn't the first publication to say this

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests
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      05-27-2012, 05:28 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3alabama View Post
You lost any ounce of credibility when you are saying a flat ENGINE torque curve is due to gearing??? Just to fill you in, gears are something that are driven and come after the engine and has zero to do with the shape of a dyno curve!!

Gears effect how much of that torque is put to the wheels but that is not something a dyno measures, no would any gearing combination effect the torque curve of an engine.

I stopped reading after that line because clearly you know about the least about cars I could imagine for being someone posting on an m3 thread.
Move on. You have no idea who I am or what I do, love someone with 13 posts calling me out. It was late in Germany and I mistyped.... What I wanted to say was that torque can be remedied with gearing. The torque curve on the S65 is good but weak on paper for values- thanks to the gearing it is much better on pavement. The engine in the CRT/GTS Z4/GT3 is the real revelation though. The S63tü on the other hand is a different situation entirely.

Having recently experienced the P65 first hand- that engine is simply a work of art but what makes it all the more effective is the X-trac.

Last edited by mapezzul; 05-27-2012 at 05:44 PM.
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      05-27-2012, 05:34 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhabs View Post
Not used to seeing M cars in 3rd place, RE driver feel, communication with the road, over-insulation.. and this isn't the first publication to say this

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests
IIIRC and you look at his previous reviews you will note that he commends the steering for being communicative and hydraulic but looses some value because the car is so big and heavy.... love how C&D always has an agenda.
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      05-27-2012, 11:04 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
The purpose of a twin-scroll setup is to completely separate exhaust pulses from different pairs/sets of cylinders and use some of the gained energy (that would be lost if the cylinder exhaust paths would communicate) to feed the turbocharger with more efficiency. If you mix the pulses from 3 cylinders before splitting them up again to feed the twin-scroll, you cancel the twin-scroll concept.
You are right the way BMW uses their CCM(Cylinder-bank Comprehensive Manifold) with the twin scroll turbocharger is to keep the pulses separate. What I was suggesting was not to use the CCM and apply another technology to take advantage of a 6 cylinder engine combined with two twin-scroll turbochargers. I can think of two potentially effective ways to do this and I am sure BMW can think of many more. Of course they may do something completely different, I was just speculating
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      05-28-2012, 08:36 AM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
Move on. You have no idea who I am or what I do
You sound like a mob boss or assassin.

So who are you and what do you do? Why be so condescending and then be so shy about your identity? Let us know what great presence we are all in the company of.

I'm just a lurker most of the time but your posts have stuck out to me as being rude and condescending. Whoever or whatever you think you are, you fit the bad reputation that some BMW drivers give the brand.
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      05-28-2012, 09:42 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan135 View Post
You are right the way BMW uses their CCM(Cylinder-bank Comprehensive Manifold) with the twin scroll turbocharger is to keep the pulses separate. What I was suggesting was not to use the CCM and apply another technology to take advantage of a 6 cylinder engine combined with two twin-scroll turbochargers. I can think of two potentially effective ways to do this and I am sure BMW can think of many more. Of course they may do something completely different, I was just speculating
You may be on to something there!

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Originally Posted by The///Man View Post
You sound like a mob boss or assassin.

So who are you and what do you do? Why be so condescending and then be so shy about your identity? Let us know what great presence we are all in the company of.

I'm just a lurker most of the time but your posts have stuck out to me as being rude and condescending. Whoever or whatever you think you are, you fit the bad reputation that some BMW drivers give the brand.
I am a weapons dealer with the codes to the nukes! In all seriousness let's get back to the real story inline six!
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      05-28-2012, 10:06 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
I am a weapons dealer with the codes to the nukes! In all seriousness let's get back to the real story inline six!
You're the one who derailed the good technical discussion with your arrogance, condescension and talk about who or what you are. Saw some of your past posts which also reek of the same attitude.

Whoever you are, you should check your ego (which I'm sure is totally self inflated) at the 'door'.
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      05-28-2012, 12:49 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The///Man View Post
You're the one who derailed the good technical discussion with your arrogance, condescension and talk about who or what you are. Saw some of your past posts which also reek of the same attitude.

Whoever you are, you should check your ego (which I'm sure is totally self inflated) at the 'door'.
I didn't derail it- I was simply stating that calling someone out is not always the best thing to do as I could be a BMW employee with knowledge trying to steer people in the right direction- it happens here and elsewhere all the time. Maybe it didn't come across that way. My apologies.

The new M3 has over 400 people working on it at the time being and this fall will be crunch time to get things final. It will be interesting to see how when it comes to market next year how people will accept the technology.

One of the technologies is currently being used by another German company to great reviews and fan fare while BMW's implementation has not been given the same view. With the F80, the technology from that other German company will be used so if it is not received well BMW could always say "Well it is identical to so-and-so so how can it not be as good"? That tech is still under debate during the testing but if the car is to meet the ambitious fuel economy numbers it almost certainly needs to be in there.
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      05-29-2012, 12:04 AM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3alabama View Post
You lost any ounce of credibility when you are saying a flat ENGINE torque curve is due to gearing??? Just to fill you in, gears are something that are driven and come after the engine and has zero to do with the shape of a dyno curve!!

Gears effect how much of that torque is put to the wheels but that is not something a dyno measures, no would any gearing combination effect the torque curve of an engine.

I stopped reading after that line because clearly you know about the least about cars I could imagine for being someone posting on an m3 thread.

Interesting... So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter what gear you run when using a dyno....
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      05-29-2012, 01:52 AM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
Move on. You have no idea who I am or what I do, love someone with 13 posts calling me out. It was late in Germany and I mistyped.... What I wanted to say was that torque can be remedied with gearing. The torque curve on the S65 is good but weak on paper for values- thanks to the gearing it is much better on pavement. The engine in the CRT/GTS Z4/GT3 is the real revelation though. The S63tü on the other hand is a different situation entirely.

Having recently experienced the P65 first hand- that engine is simply a work of art but what makes it all the more effective is the X-trac.
You must be one of the BMW gods who graces us with his precense on here. LOL
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      05-29-2012, 02:04 AM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhabs View Post
Not used to seeing M cars in 3rd place, RE driver feel, communication with the road, over-insulation.. and this isn't the first publication to say this

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests
+1 the 5/7 series used to be best in class in most comparisons,not anymore. Now those cars usually place in the middle of the pack. Bravo BMW!

In one group test,The F10 lost to the Previous Audi A6.
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      05-29-2012, 02:23 AM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Interesting... So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter what gear you run when using a dyno....
Regarding what m3alabama said:
If you keep the gearing the same and replace the S65 with a tuned FBO N54,will the torque curve(shape) change or will it remain the same?
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      05-29-2012, 03:39 AM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
One of the technologies is currently being used by another German company to great reviews and fan fare while BMW's implementation has not been given the same view. With the F80, the technology from that other German company will be used so if it is not received well BMW could always say "Well it is identical to so-and-so so how can it not be as good"? That tech is still under debate during the testing but if the car is to meet the ambitious fuel economy numbers it almost certainly needs to be in there.
Someone needs to decipher this, it's interesting I don't know any German company using something even remotely interesting aside from the electrical helper motors.

EDIT: I think it's about the SUPERCHARGER (compressor driven by the engine crankshaft and not exhaust gases like the turbocharger) used in Audi S4 3.0 TFSI or maybe a combination of a supercharger and a turbocharger (probably twin-scroll) as used in VW's TSI engines !!! This fits too well to the mapezzul post But as far as I know, superchargers are less efficient than turbochargers. But in combination with a turbocharger, linear response + good fuel economy can be achieved.

So:

- Direct injection
- Valvetronic
- Twin-scroll turbocharger
- Supercharger

One hell of an engine

Last edited by cstavaru; 05-29-2012 at 04:05 AM.
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      05-29-2012, 05:41 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
I didn't derail it- I was simply stating that calling someone out is not always the best thing to do as I could be a BMW employee with knowledge trying to steer people in the right direction- it happens here and elsewhere all the time. Maybe it didn't come across that way. My apologies.

The new M3 has over 400 people working on it at the time being and this fall will be crunch time to get things final. It will be interesting to see how when it comes to market next year how people will accept the technology.

One of the technologies is currently being used by another German company to great reviews and fan fare while BMW's implementation has not been given the same view. With the F80, the technology from that other German company will be used so if it is not received well BMW could always say "Well it is identical to so-and-so so how can it not be as good"? That tech is still under debate during the testing but if the car is to meet the ambitious fuel economy numbers it almost certainly needs to be in there
.
Over 400 people damn thats alot of chefs working on one car can be good can be bad or somewere in the middle i guess.

The technologie you are speaking of i guess is cylinder deactivation didn't Bmw had that in the early,mid 90's on their V12's 750 850 models? or maybe i am remembering wrong.

Im not a fan of that tech especially in performance cars.
If the M3 is going to have that i wonder why didn't the new M5/M6 got it?
Makes more sense on a V8 than on 6cyl but maybe the tech was not ready for the M5/M6?

Well if the new M3 comes with that tech i hope you somehow can deactivate the cylinder deactivation
So much things you want to deactivate on newer cars i dont like it

Bmw and Mercedes-Benz doesn't seem to like the cylinder deactivation either interesting read :http://www.carsales.com.au/news/2012...bmw-benz-30219

Last edited by Holset; 05-29-2012 at 05:51 AM.
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      05-29-2012, 10:10 AM   #261
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Interesting, so after allegations of C&D disproportionately boosting BMW for the last 10+ years, now the magazine is doing a 180 degree turn? something doesn't fit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
IIIRC and you look at his previous reviews you will note that he commends the steering for being communicative and hydraulic but looses some value because the car is so big and heavy.... love how C&D always has an agenda.
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      05-31-2012, 12:46 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Soorena View Post
One of the BMW head engineers. He months ago stated that DCT has no future and Autos can be as quick as DCT's.
That's interesting, we have an F10 with the 8 speed auto and it's certainly quick but I would say I can still tell the difference between it and the DCT...although I bet most of that difference is programmed in, for example pulling the shifter to tell it to shift has a noticeable delay that is not present in the E9x M3 with DCT.
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      06-01-2012, 03:02 AM   #263
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I believe the v8 will out perform the new m3

I totally agree with you, on top of that I believe that the v8 engine if tuned by Ess or G-power " super charger" that can easilly get over 650hp+ However with an inline with 2 or 3 turbos al ready in stock not much room to tune. The tuning will be the same as the type of tuning thatnu make for a 335i. In conclusion the v8 will sound better has the potential to get reach higher hp. So BMW went one step back interns of sheer driving pleasure I would say
Quote:
Originally Posted by m3alabama View Post
Does no other m owners or any enthusiasts not value more than power in a car? Even balance, which is what an M is about is only one special characteristic. Does nobody value the following-

1.Having a ONE-OFF engine unique to the m3 which nobody else has access to or no other car uses. Engineered tirelessly (via s85) to have the highest output per litre they ever had and one of the highest in the industry. To have the flattest torque curve in the industry that is flatter than most turbo cars which are the ones typically have fat curves. To rev to 8400 rpms which is bested by only a modern ferrari/lambo.

2.The sound? I don't know about some of you but my m3 is a street car and a very minor part time tracker. Every single day you can listen and enjoy the racing sound of a high strung v8 s65! You often cannot exploit the full power of any car, so I feel having a beautiful noise is half of the daily enjoyment.

Having something in common with F1 tech. A high strung v8 just feels special. Now F1 will go v6 turbo and no longer any link to them even if it was only conceptually.

I dont know. There is more to be missed than simply the fact the turbo will put out more torque and power.

Last edited by mosamra; 06-01-2012 at 03:10 AM.
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      06-01-2012, 06:54 AM   #264
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Please get over it people.
Stop acting like a V8 belongs in an M3. There have been multiple M3 generations, and only one generation had a V8.
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