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      06-19-2012, 10:34 AM   #23
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I see a lot of anti change sentiments around here. The OP is at least open minded enough to embrace turbocharging. There are many posts by those who don't like BMW's move to go all turbo on petrol engines. I find it hard to reach the conclusion that the NA 6 beats the new turbo 2l four but they are out there. There are numerous posters in the 1 series forum who would rather drive a MT6 than a DCT, despite the fact that the take rate on the DCT is over 90%.

The real issue is the insane fuel efficiency rules being forced on the public. High performance cars will continue to increase in price at a rate faster than for other cars because the cost of the technology required and the economics that penalize vehicles with less than targeted efficiency.
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      06-19-2012, 10:39 AM   #24
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Long live the E92 M3....
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      06-19-2012, 10:39 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Rated ///M View Post
You have no idea what the wheels are doing in a EPS equipped car. Steering is vague and uncommunicative.
Never driven an S2000, have you? It doesn't have to be terrible, but to be fair, BMW doesn't seem to have learned that yet.
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      06-19-2012, 10:43 AM   #26
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Never driven an S2000, have you? It doesn't have to be terrible, but to be fair, BMW doesn't seem to have learned that yet.
No, I haven't. I'm interested to see where BMW takes this, though.
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      06-19-2012, 10:51 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Never driven an S2000, have you? It doesn't have to be terrible, but to be fair, BMW doesn't seem to have learned that yet.
Exactly what I was going to say *lol*, but it goes even farther back than that. Anyone remember the NSX? EPS equipped......
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      06-19-2012, 10:55 AM   #28
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      06-19-2012, 11:03 AM   #29
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eps are for girls. but if the change is bound to happen, people will learn to like it and deal with it.
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      06-19-2012, 11:03 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
Exactly what I was going to say *lol*, but it goes even farther back than that. Anyone remember the NSX? EPS equipped......
I left that off the table for the same, accurate, reason that some said comparing the M3 to the 991 isn't really fair. The S2k is at least the same basic setup as the M3. But it is funny that Honda clearly understood EPS on rwd cars many years ago. Pity they don't still build any.
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      06-19-2012, 11:12 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
I left that off the table for the same, accurate, reason that some said comparing the M3 to the 991 isn't really fair. The S2k is at least the same basic setup as the M3. But it is funny that Honda clearly understood EPS on rwd cars many years ago. Pity they don't still build any.
Hey Red,

I drove an S2000 for eight years, and while that car was by far the most communicative and engaging of any car I've owned (and most cars I've driven), I always felt that the steering was its weakest link. Superb road feel through the seats and chassis, great throttle response, and a world-class transmission -- coupled with a steering feel that was solid, but not superb. At least, not on par with everything else that made that car so wonderful to drive.
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      06-19-2012, 11:15 AM   #32
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don't like that idea.
I wish there is a sanctioning body (us at bimmerpost) telling BMW what to do and what to not do.
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      06-19-2012, 11:17 AM   #33
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So last week I was in So. Cal chillin' with the 'rents after finishing a week-long charity bicycle ride from SF to LA. As such, I had no car and wound up borrowing my sister's 2011 Hyundai Elantra. Why mention this? Because it provided me with a ton of perspective on BMW's implementation of EPS in the F30.

The EPS rack in the F30 does lose some of the "road grit" and micro communication found in my beloved e46, but IMO it's well-weighted (in Sport setting), accurate, and linear. The EPS in the Elantra is a mess; it's numb on center, too heavy immediately off-center, and finally too light once rolling. All the while, the Elantra's steering ratio is WAY too quick for a car this size and it always feels artificial.

Now comparing a $50k BMW to a $20k Hyundai may not be an apples-to-apples comparison, but it did illustrate to me how much thought has gone into the F30's setup. Time and technology change and even BMW is bound to make some flubs along the way. After all, look at the HPFP failures of the N54 and even the "new vs. new-new" steering rack issues from the e46. However, I'm sure that given some time and experience BMW wil find a way to make EPS feel every bit as good as their hydraulic systems have come to be.
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      06-19-2012, 11:22 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by aajami View Post
Hey Red,

I drove an S2000 for eight years, and while that car was by far the most communicative and engaging of any car I've owned (and most cars I've driven), I always felt that the steering was its weakest link. Superb road feel through the seats and chassis, great throttle response, and a world-class transmission -- coupled with a steering feel that was solid, but not superb. At least, not on par with everything else that made that car so wonderful to drive.
I suppose that's fair. They do make up for it though with the chassis giving a lot of clear feedback, while the actual steering is a little muted. It's partially the weight, but there are certainly lots of cars with less steering feel than the S2k including many with a traditional hydraulic rack.

Again, just trying to say that if BMW goes back to the drawing board on the F30 setup, there could be hope. If they just reprogram the existing F30 setup, I think we'll all be disappointed.
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      06-19-2012, 11:27 AM   #35
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as long as they can trickle the new system down into the f30 so we get more "feel" back, sounds good to me
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      06-19-2012, 11:37 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver View Post
There are numerous posters in the 1 series forum who would rather drive a MT6 than a DCT, despite the fact that the take rate on the DCT is over 90%.
I'm one of those posters. Care to cite where you got the 90% take rate on the DCT for the 135 from? Just because the DCT is newer technology that can shift faster doesn't necessarily make it the "superior" transmission in every aspect.
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      06-19-2012, 11:48 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Bimmeration View Post
eps are for girls. but if the change is bound to happen, people will learn to like it and deal with it.
This is probably true. I met one of the marketing executives at the Drive for Team USA event for the F30 and I asked him straight up, WHY they did this.

He told me because BMW market research suggested they could sell more cars that way because women generally hated the stiffer steering feel and most likely wouldn't let their husbands buy bimmers because they hated driving them.

The way BMW sees it, its a win win for them because wives will say Yes and men just have to suck it up. Woman's world, I just figured it out.
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      06-19-2012, 12:13 PM   #38
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At the risk of sounding like a broken record, we do need to define what we mean by steering feel.

I do believe the 911, and the F30 both did a decent job in leaving the grip-level related steering feel in tact in their switch to EPS. That is, you can judge the front tire grip based on the steering feel.

What is being criticized is the lack of steering sensitivity, where the driver "feels the road" even on straight ahead position. In fact, I do not know of a single EPS system that is known to provide this, including the NSX and the S2000. (It's funny people keep brining these two cars up when their EPS racks were widely considered to be the least effective parts of their chassis.)

So if the M3 does make the jump to the EPS, I predict that once again, it will get the former right, but will lack the latter. My reasoning is,

1. It seems even the performance oriented companies like Porsche and BMW view this type of steering sensitivity (road feel) as having dubious value. They do not really make you go faster, and many non-enthusiasts consider it a nuisance.

2. For the same reason, it is conceivable that ZF, who seems to be supplying all the high end EPS these days, does not build this type of steering sensitivity into their parameter space at all. If this is the case, then no amount of tuning by the car companies will make a difference in this regard.
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      06-19-2012, 12:34 PM   #39
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Got an opportunity to drive the new Carrera & Carrera S a few weekends ago on the track and can say I did notice the EPS!

Performance wise its right there.... but basic feel of road conditions and the weight of the car in cornering seemed off to me.

If you get an opportunity check out the Porsche World Roadshow, new Carrera S is sick.... and surprisingly I loved the Boxster S as well.
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      06-19-2012, 01:13 PM   #40
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Last week this news would have sent me off a cliff, but I got to drive a friend's 991 Carrera S a few days ago and while it definitely has less feel than the 997 Carrera S my dad used to have, it's more than good enough.

I just don't understand why they would even bother, the last M3 got awful gas mileage and so did the M5 and yet we bought them in droves...the new car will get much better mileage which is nice, but do we really have to squeeze out every last 1/10 of an MPG on what is supposed to be primarily a sporty car?
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      06-19-2012, 01:40 PM   #41
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Why are so many against this? This isn't DRIVE-BY-WIRE steering as far as I can tell; it's just electrically assisted; the power steering pump is not driven by the motor.

Go drive a Honda S2000, it had electric steering since 2000/1999 and I've not driven a BMW that could touch my old 2006 in terms of steering feel and driving dynamics.

This is a good thing! This is more efficient, frees up power, and takes pounds of constant drag off the engine at the crank.
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      06-19-2012, 02:27 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonCSU View Post
I'm one of those posters. Care to cite where you got the 90% take rate on the DCT for the 135 from? Just because the DCT is newer technology that can shift faster doesn't necessarily make it the "superior" transmission in every aspect.
I can't give you an exact address, but it was posted there a while back for several BMW models and over several years. Go ask your dealer if you can't find it, or don't want to believe me. We could argue as to whether the DCT is superior to MT forever, and it has been done already, just as many still believe in the superiority of NA engines. This electric steering thing has a lot of folks disagreeing. However, Porsche managed to get it right, so it ought to be possible for BMW.

A month ago I was given a 5 series loaner with MT6. The gal in charge of loaners said she had trouble getting customers to take it as a loaner because so few of them could drive a manual. If you go by the population of these forums you will think a majority of 1 series owners drive stick and have a JB4. Sorry, but forums are for enthusiasts and vast majority of BMW owners don't care about any of that stuff.
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      06-19-2012, 02:32 PM   #43
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I could be wrong but, I thought that alot of people did not like the 991 EPS, Saying that it while it is a great improvement for EPS it still does not compare to a well thought out hydro system. Me personally I hope that BMW sticks with the basics on the steering, EPS has been thrown out on every M car so far, And everyone has always been glad that they had stuck with hydro.
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      06-19-2012, 02:55 PM   #44
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Nooooooo!!!!!!
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