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      06-19-2012, 02:56 PM   #45
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lol at all these people about losing the feeling

You drive a power steering assisted car to begin with. Go pull the fuse on the power steering and then go get a real feel for the car's suspension.

I hope the power steering will be easily tunable, as I actually enjoy it being harder to turn. I turn on M mode in my car often just so I get that more rigid stability in the wheel at high speeds on the bendy highways around here in LA. Feels good.
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      06-19-2012, 03:18 PM   #46
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To answer the question?
Yes....
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      06-19-2012, 04:04 PM   #47
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EPS is good on the 991, and 981, but not as good as the EHPS in the 997 and 987. Also the GT86 EPS is good, but still not as the EHPS as in the MX-5. The best EPS to date is found in the LFA. So it is possible, if BMW can get the EPS right on the M3 F8X, it is ok.
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      06-19-2012, 06:37 PM   #48
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The M3 is the icon of BMW...trust me, they will not do anything to screw it up...especially introduce a half-assed steering.
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      06-19-2012, 07:02 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWBoss View Post
The M3 is the icon of BMW...trust me, they will not do anything to screw it up...especially introduce a half-assed steering.
If BMW took the risk to bastardize the steering in the bread and butter 3er, they will have no problem ruining the M3. BMW has strayed so far from core values that even the M brand is no longer sacred.

X5M, seriously? The original M brand managers would have laughed it out of the office.

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      06-19-2012, 07:16 PM   #50
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I am a bit apprehensive because I love the feel of BMW hydraulic steering setups.

I have driven multiple new generation 5 series and do not care for the EPS steering feel. Heard that BMW had tweaked them since for the all new F30 3 series. I have not driven the new F30 3 series. So I can't really comment on its EPS steering feel.

Anyways, from the reviews I have read over the Porsche EPS system. It is claimed to be one of the best. However, the reviewers still thought it was not as great as the hydraulic setup found in Porsches.

I hope if BMW is planing on using EPS steering rack in the next M3. Then they really work on the feel and feed back of the EPS steering system. Because as of right now they are sub-par in feel and feed back in my opinion.
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      06-19-2012, 07:20 PM   #51
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Yes, up to this point F10 M5 and all new M6 are Hydraulic setups for the sake of better road feel and feed back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Meh, we heard it with hydraulic assisted steering, brakes and clutches, this was inevitable. Is the F10 M5 still hydro? As already stated, Porsche has made serious progress with EPS, and it's certainly possible to build a bad hydraulic rack, or a good electric one.
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      06-19-2012, 08:24 PM   #52
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I'm a little fearful.

The regular 5 series steering is pretty criticized.

While I didn't think the new F30's steering was bad or anything (I thought it was fine), I definitely prefer my E92's.

The current m3 has already received criticism for its steering (too light, not as much feel as the Porsches, etc.)

While I do have a lot of confidence in the M Division, I don't have a lot of confidence in the face of limited time for them to perfect it... especially since the gap they have to bridge appears larger than what Porsche had.
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      06-19-2012, 10:36 PM   #53
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I drove an F30 Modern Line for 4 days as a loaner. Even in sport mode, the steering sucks compared to previous BMWs. I've owned an E36, two E46s, and just purchased my 3rd E90, so I think I've got a good frame of reference on how BMWs drive.

I wish you a lot of luck and pray they don't fuck it up for a 1/10 of a gallon better fuel economy.
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      06-19-2012, 11:00 PM   #54
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Yes, meaning you are aware that they are going with EPS steering.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
To answer the question?
Yes....
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      06-19-2012, 11:05 PM   #55
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      06-19-2012, 11:23 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rated ///M
You have no idea what the wheels are doing in a EPS equipped car. Steering is vague and uncommunicative. I hope the BMW engineers fine tune it properly, or this may very well be the end. Then again, the M3 is BMW's bread and butter. My brain keeps telling me that there is absolutely no way that BMW will mess this up.
The M3 is not BMW's bread and butter. The 328 is.
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      06-20-2012, 12:59 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich@GTBPerformance
If they can do it well... then do it.

BMW won't half ass this and if it is not 100% perfect by the time the car launches, it won't be in the M3.
:Word:
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      06-20-2012, 01:00 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraggy
I drove an F30 Modern Line for 4 days as a loaner. Even in sport mode, the steering sucks compared to previous BMWs. I've owned an E36, two E46s, and just purchased my 3rd E90, so I think I've got a good frame of reference on how BMWs drive.

I wish you a lot of luck and pray they don't fuck it up for a 1/10 of a gallon better fuel economy.
I guess all those MINIs being sold must be horrible too?
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      06-20-2012, 01:27 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
Yes.

On the surface, this sounds like bad news for the next M3. But BMW M spends millions of $$ to track and test these models to live up to (and hopefully surpass) enthusiasts' expectations. I'll give them benefit of the doubt, and looking forward to driving one myself.

I like my M3 steering, but I have always felt that BMWs have a bit too much weight in the steering at times. Maybe a finely tuned EPS system can be even better than the best we have today?


I think your right on the point that BMW spends million of bucks testing not only the track but real world driving in probably every possible scenerio. BMW's are known for being tight and heavy and a more "feel the road" experience and the M department knows that all the people want to have that heavy "grip" so to say. That is what driving a BMW is about. I do however think that they are going to come up with the perfect balance because that is what the M3 is about... If its electric, it better be very very good otherwise there will be issues I have enough trust in M that they will def have it sorted out, one way or another.
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      06-20-2012, 02:45 AM   #60
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While it's obvious that personal taste plays a big role in one's definition of good steering feel, there are some great observations here.

My definition of steering feel can be broken into 4 components:

1) Precision: It should go where you point it
2) Loading characteristics: As cornering forces build, it should give you some feedback by way of increasing effort. Then, as the limit approaches and the front ties start to slide, it should go light again. Anyone who remembers driving a car with unassisted steering knows this sensation- it can feel very light when going straight but loads the harder you corner.
3) Road feedback: Some call it kickback and hate it. I personally like a little bit over bumps and bots dots just to give a sense of connection between man and machine.
4) Effort: it shouldn't be so light that you can't sense any of 2) or 3).

Of all the cars I've owned or spent a lot of time driving, my benchmarks are a pair of BMWs- an E30 325iX and an E90 328i. They had better feel than the two unassisted cars, a '93 MR2 and an '89 Civic Si.

The biggest disappointment is my '04 S2000, precise but completely lacking 2) and 3)- effort is always the same. As another poster mentioned this car is so visceral in every other way that it deserves better steering feel.

Most pleasant surprise is my 2009 Fit Sport. Light effort but surprisingly good 1), 2), and 3), especially since it is EPS. Really adds some unexpected joy to the daily commute in this cheap sh!tbox

My '99 Z3 Coupe and '88 Prelude were pretty good but not standouts.

That leaves the F30 which I have only test driven. It's extremely light and first impressions of 2) and 3) were not good, but I'd have to give it time. I just wish they hadn't changed it so much from the E90.
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      06-20-2012, 02:56 AM   #61
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Lots of debating going on here. People don't forget it's an m3. It will only get better
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      06-20-2012, 08:53 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xspeedy View Post
If BMW took the risk to bastardize the steering in the bread and butter 3er, they will have no problem ruining the M3. BMW has strayed so far from core values that even the M brand is no longer sacred.

X5M, seriously? The original M brand managers would have laughed it out of the office.

BMW - The relentless pursuit of profits.


+1
When the 335i came out, a lot of E46 M3 owners traded their M cars for the turbocharged 6.
I'm not seeing a lot of E9X M3 owners getting the boring F30.
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      06-20-2012, 09:41 AM   #63
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many people say that Porsche got their EPS right on the new cars but fail to remember that BMW is not Porsche so i dont think its really comparing apples to apples. even the porsche 6mt is far better than bmw ever was..theyre just 2 different cars companies and 2 different classes of cars
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      06-20-2012, 09:53 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich@GTBPerformance View Post
If they can do it well... then do it.

BMW won't half ass this and if it is not 100% perfect by the time the car launches, it won't be in the M3.


Just like they didn't half-ass the new M6 spoiler???
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      06-20-2012, 10:05 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATS View Post


Just like they didn't half-ass the new M6 spoiler???
Okay, I'll bite.

Why don't you enlighten me on what you think is half assed about the M6 spoiler?
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      06-20-2012, 10:27 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraggy
I drove an F30 Modern Line for 4 days as a loaner. Even in sport mode, the steering sucks compared to previous BMWs. I've owned an E36, two E46s, and just purchased my 3rd E90, so I think I've got a good frame of reference on how BMWs drive.

I wish you a lot of luck and pray they don't fuck it up for a 1/10 of a gallon better fuel economy.
I guess all those MINIs being sold must be horrible too?
I have never driven a mini, so I really can't say. But after six BMWs I think I have a general idea and most of them felt pretty similar overall. The F30 does not drive like any other BMW. While it has great mechanical prowess, it lacks the connection and feedback to the driver. The steering does make it feel like a cheaper car than it really deserves to feel.

I am sure that one of these years, they will get this all sorted out, or we will all just get used to that new feeling and forget about what cars used to drive like.

It's funny, on the fourth day of the loaner car, the F 30, started to smoke out of the trunk, apparently something was shorting out. So I called the dealership and they sent me a new loaner car, an E90. neither car had sports package, but the E 90 immediately felt like a familiar BMW.
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