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      06-20-2012, 11:17 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estrader View Post
many people say that Porsche got their EPS right on the new cars but fail to remember that BMW is not Porsche so i dont think its really comparing apples to apples. even the porsche 6mt is far better than bmw ever was..theyre just 2 different cars companies and 2 different classes of cars
Great point!

BMW and Porsche both offer roadsters, the 2012 Boxster is a 2,900 lb low center of gravity flat 6 mid engine and the 2012 z4 weighs around 3,250 lbs.
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      06-20-2012, 11:18 AM   #68
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Unhappy EPS

I dont think the EPS system will live upto an M3 driver's expectations, but lets hope they get it right or else I will be looking else were next time I change my car.
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      06-20-2012, 11:26 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
Great point!

BMW and Porsche both offer roadsters, the 2012 Boxster is a 2,900 lb low center of gravity flat 6 mid engine and the 2012 z4 weighs around 3,250 lbs.
Further, the Porsche only has about 45% of the weight on the nose.
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      06-20-2012, 11:31 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptt127 View Post
While it's obvious that personal taste plays a big role in one's definition of good steering feel, there are some great observations here.

My definition of steering feel can be broken into 4 components:

1) Precision: It should go where you point it
2) Loading characteristics: As cornering forces build, it should give you some feedback by way of increasing effort. Then, as the limit approaches and the front ties start to slide, it should go light again. Anyone who remembers driving a car with unassisted steering knows this sensation- it can feel very light when going straight but loads the harder you corner.
3) Road feedback: Some call it kickback and hate it. I personally like a little bit over bumps and bots dots just to give a sense of connection between man and machine.
4) Effort: it shouldn't be so light that you can't sense any of 2) or 3).

Of all the cars I've owned or spent a lot of time driving, my benchmarks are a pair of BMWs- an E30 325iX and an E90 328i. They had better feel than the two unassisted cars, a '93 MR2 and an '89 Civic Si.

The biggest disappointment is my '04 S2000, precise but completely lacking 2) and 3)- effort is always the same. As another poster mentioned this car is so visceral in every other way that it deserves better steering feel.

Most pleasant surprise is my 2009 Fit Sport. Light effort but surprisingly good 1), 2), and 3), especially since it is EPS. Really adds some unexpected joy to the daily commute in this cheap sh!tbox

My '99 Z3 Coupe and '88 Prelude were pretty good but not standouts.

That leaves the F30 which I have only test driven. It's extremely light and first impressions of 2) and 3) were not good, but I'd have to give it time. I just wish they hadn't changed it so much from the E90.
This is a very nice post.

I would argue that 2 and 3 are what most people call the steering feel, while 1 and 4 are called, well, precision and effort. But I fully agree that all of them are very important.

The best EPS might be able to get 1, 2, and 4 right, but 3 remains elusive.
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      06-20-2012, 11:45 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Further, the Porsche only has about 45% of the weight on the nose.
I'm so glad you ve pointed that out, BMW thinks a perfect 50/50 is the way to go actually a slightly lighter steer axle weight is better. Look at f1 cars,super cars none have 50-50 weight distribution.
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      06-20-2012, 11:52 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Rich@GTBPerformance View Post
Okay, I'll bite.

Why don't you enlighten me on what you think is half assed about the M6 spoiler?
Just the fact that AFTER they released the car, they found out that they had to fit a hideous looking spoiler because it was necessary for "enhanced aerodynamics".

Which of course means: we did a half-ass job when testing the new $120k M6 and found out too late that without the spoiler you will crash when traveling at high speed.

Here's the thread: http://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=692330
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      06-20-2012, 11:59 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptt127 View Post
While it's obvious that personal taste plays a big role in one's definition of good steering feel, there are some great observations here.

My definition of steering feel can be broken into 4 components:

1) Precision: It should go where you point it
2) Loading characteristics: As cornering forces build, it should give you some feedback by way of increasing effort. Then, as the limit approaches and the front ties start to slide, it should go light again. Anyone who remembers driving a car with unassisted steering knows this sensation- it can feel very light when going straight but loads the harder you corner.
3) Road feedback: Some call it kickback and hate it. I personally like a little bit over bumps and bots dots just to give a sense of connection between man and machine.
4) Effort: it shouldn't be so light that you can't sense any of 2) or 3).

The biggest disappointment is my '04 S2000, precise but completely lacking 2) and 3)- effort is always the same. As another poster mentioned this car is so visceral in every other way that it deserves better steering feel.
My S2000 did 2) just fine minus the tires going light again when understeer happens. I hate that feeling, so I felt the S2000 did it just fine
If you weren't getting 3) in your S2000, maybe you should have gotten better tires? The S2000 had loads of road feedback.

Point being that people are flipping out over this because they can't distinguish between electric steering and drive-by-wire steering.
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      06-20-2012, 01:09 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sered View Post
Point being that people are flipping out over this because they can't distinguish between electric steering and drive-by-wire steering.
That is simply untrue. There are plenty of people on this board that know quite a bit about how an EPS works that have been participating in this debate. Show me the posts where anyone says anything about DBW steering, which doesn't even exist for passenger cars.
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      06-20-2012, 02:13 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATS View Post
Just the fact that AFTER they released the car, they found out that they had to fit a hideous looking spoiler because it was necessary for "enhanced aerodynamics".

Which of course means: we did a half-ass job when testing the new $120k M6 and found out too late that without the spoiler you will crash when traveling at high speed.

Here's the thread: http://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=692330
Actually what happened was M put its foot down and told the marketing people the car needs the spoiler.
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      06-20-2012, 02:25 PM   #76
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This may be a stupid question, but what are the benefits of EPS? And here's my next stupid question: what's broken about hydraulic steering?

I'm just curious. I've heard the rants about EPS. I've driven with it myself and, compared to what my e92 feels like, I'm not nuts about it, but I can live with it.

As a practical matter, I'm not likely to buy an M3 (or M anything else) unless there arises a new reason more compelling than those that existed over the past quarter century.
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      06-20-2012, 02:46 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
This may be a stupid question, but what are the benefits of EPS? And here's my next stupid question: what's broken about hydraulic steering?

I'm just curious. I've heard the rants about EPS. I've driven with it myself and, compared to what my e92 feels like, I'm not nuts about it, but I can live with it.

As a practical matter, I'm not likely to buy an M3 (or M anything else) unless there arises a new reason more compelling than those that existed over the past quarter century.
You do save a little gas with the EPS. For a high powered luxury cars like BMW, this is a very tiny effect. But if you have a small, light car with a small engine, every little bit helps.

In addition, EPS is more compact, easier to tune, and also cheaper to produce. Again, none of these is critical to cars like BMW, but they matter a lot to mainstream cars.

So why do these factors affect our cars? I would guess that the suppliers will simply not develop or produce HPS any more. Keep in mind that both Porsche and BMW are buying their steering system from ZF. If parts companies like ZF no longer wants to maintain HPS line, which would be a wise business move as 99% of the market would not miss HPS, then you have no other choice but to tune the EPS the best you can.

Or you can make your own steering rack, but apparently nobody does that any more.
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      06-20-2012, 02:52 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
Actually what happened was M put its foot down and told the marketing people the car needs the spoiler.
Yes every BMW right up to the official market launch is perfected and tested before they end up with the customer.
Even after the first press releases, you would be surprised on how many cars that BMW submit for initial launch photography and film work which are not final examples , some of which is why interiors are often filmed within the confine of studios later.
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      06-20-2012, 03:18 PM   #79
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I find eps bad systems have more precision than hydraulic. Not that it makes a world of difference


Cars will evolve.

#firstworldproblems
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      06-20-2012, 04:36 PM   #80
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Cars will evolve.

#firstworldproblems
That's probably why i can't find a new car with a "Three on the tree".
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      06-20-2012, 08:05 PM   #81
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The real issue is the insane fuel efficiency rules being forced on the public. High performance cars will continue to increase in price at a rate faster than for other cars because the cost of the technology required and the economics that penalize vehicles with less than targeted efficiency.
have you seen what AMG prices are doing? crazy
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      06-21-2012, 01:21 AM   #82
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smoke coming out of the trunk on a brand new F30???? hmm.... I think Im going to stick to my e92 for a while....I havent had smoke come out of my trunk....I thought smoke usually comes out of the front of a car if something is on fire or burning... I guess there is just way to many wires back there because of all this technology they are putting in these cars.... Me personally would rather my trunk not be smoking driving down the road lol. Why cant M improve their engines and transmissions to be bullet proof and fast as hell but also keep to the basics that there is no way a EPS sytem is going to duplicate hydro steering
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      04-08-2014, 12:21 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
This may be a stupid question, but what are the benefits of EPS? And here's my next stupid question: what's broken about hydraulic steering?
I hate EPS, but it is a little lighter and more efficient (don't have to waste horsepower from the engine spinning the pump).

I think besides fuel savings, one of the primary reasons many cars have gone to EPS is so the cars can still be steered with the engine turned off (Start/Stop systems). This way you can prepare to change course next time you drive away from a stop, etc.

BTW, the best possible power steering is hydraulic where the pump is spun by an electric motor. This provides all the benefits of steering feel with all the efficiency (and ability to steer with engine off) of EPS. It weighs a little more and costs a little more to implement, but EPS is too big a compromise to me. This hybrid system has been used in all the Porsche 997 factory race cars as well as the McLaren 12C.
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