BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Under Mysterious Tarp? Engine Rumored to be Reworked N55

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by m3alabama

Swamp I think we are both pretty much on the same page.

...my only point is I think bmw proved with the 1M that they already have the goods to reach 400 crank hp with 5-6 year old technology (n54) in a reliable fashion.

I'm not so sure we are on the same page. You keep repeating how easy it would be to get 450 hp from 3 liters. I suppose I agree with that in theory but in practice it takes much more than you admit (the points about everything outside of the block and heads - you seem to be ignoring)

Tuners may believe a n54/n55 is reliable with 450 hp but I guarantee BMW M engine engineers do not. Plain and simple.

As well BMW has simply not produced a factory reliable 400 hp with the n54/n55.

Originally Posted by m3alabama

kill some more parasitic losses from the lighter valvetrain and updates a few parts could probably achieve the 450 crank number.

In typical discussions about parasitic losses they are all after the crankshaft. Now for the very specialized topic about pre-crank or losses in the actual engine itself: You won't be making any appreciable gains (far less then 1%) from changes in the valvetrain.

We certainly do agree that a flat torque curve and linear power curve extending to around the 7k rpm range is very likely for the next engine.

Cheers.

[Oliver1]

Originally Posted by TOPHER325

I think its an F32 under there. After a quick round of photoshop forensics, here is what I found. Judge for yourself.

The last letter is a Z. Given what Scott said about where cars are presented, it is a tarp that belongs to FIZ.

[Mr. ///M3 RD]

In so many words as a 25 year driver of BMW's (purchased my first BMW in 1987 and been driving M3s for the past 8 years) let me say this...

A) No need to get so excited at the stage of this tease ...

and

B) Be assured that the next generation of M3's will be better and stronger then the previous one.

Meanwhile let's just wait for all facts to be published. Remember BMW and ///M Division is spending Millions on Research and Development so that we the end user can enjoy a great Engineering Masterpiece.

[Ghost335]

Originally Posted by M3RD

In so many words as a 25 year driver of BMW's (purchased my first BMW in 1987 and been driving M3s for the past 8 years) let me say this...

A) No need to get so excited at the stage of this tease ...

and

B) Be assured that the next generation of M3's will be better and stronger then the previous one.

Meanwhile let's just wait for all facts to be published. Remember BMW and ///M Division is spending Millions on Research and Development so that we the end user can enjoy a great Engineering Masterpiece.

+1. Why all the stress, It will be Epic

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by Wedge1967

BMW needs to take notes from Vishnu. A good tune with a big single should be putting down around 550 RWHP and around 500 foot pounds... Is anyone taking odds on n54 vs n55 for the new M3 considering BMW put the n54 in the 1M and the 335is over the n55? Unless they did some major upgrades to the n55 and if so, I doubt they would keep the n55 engine code. Any thoughts?

No, they should not take notes from Vishnu because BMW prefers their engines to last 100k miles and not blow up before hand.

Cheers,
e46e92

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I seriously doubt the veracity of some of this. What will be common with the n55, the block alone or a bored out version of the block with larger displacement?? Probably almost all internals would be different. It is terrible marketing and the car has a much poorer chance of success if it is called an revamped n55 or if that is actually what it is. There is simply no way they will lightly tweak the n55 change the boost and call it a day. As stated earlier the n55 share a ton with the n54 and that engine is too old to be reusing that much of it.

That being said the poster about 3 engines for the entire line up is correct. Well maybe the number is not 3 exactly but this is BMWs plan - massive reuse of common components for many more models. This is their road to much more profits. Pure and simple.

Now at the same time I fully accept the veracity of the rumors that the car will have a relatively low CF content. I've been strongly promoting that argument here in this thread.

Which btw is exactly what BMW heads used to make fun of Merc for saying "you cannot build a proper car with an 'one engine fits all' approach".

If you compromise on the things that makes your company and product unique, eventually, that catches up with you.

Cheers,
e46e92

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I suspect the great minds working inside the walls of BMW AG have a number of innovative ideas that none of us would have any inkling of.

The same great minds that thought killing the ///M3 name and splitting it into the M3 and M4.

There were so many things that made BMW different, and now they just do what everyone else does. Jesus......like watching a sports dynasty fall.

Whatever, no one cares. Tradition, respect, legacies.......they are stories of the past. Now it's all about money. No matter what, money, money, money. It's why people don't spend their entire careers at one company anymore......and the world can't figure out why people don't seem to give a crap about each other or the companies they work for


Cheers,
e46e92

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I know the new M3 and M4 will perform. Nonetheless one can not deny there is just something wrong with a lightly massaged n54 with close to 500 hp in a 65-70k base M4 (guessing the M4 will have even more power than the M3 and will also exhibit engine "reuse" to maximize profit). I guess as long as the cars continue to dominate their classes I can't complain too much. Nonetheless small details like this make the cars undeniably less special and have me looking seriously outside the M brand for the first time in a long time.

Someone gets it.

Cheers,
e46e92

[dd1981]

Originally Posted by Jblack4083

I hope they throw that electric turbo in there because after driving the N55... I can honestly say there is a noticeable lag.

Huh lag on the n55! Umm im not sure how you came to this theory but there is virtualy no lag on my n55. Its smother, crispier throttle response then the previous n54. I think you need to go drive it again and really pay attention.

Back to m3/m4 discussion now....

[PKumarM3]

when you spend 60K+ for a car, i don't think saving a few hundred dollars in gas is going to be your biggest concern.

smh at "fuel efficiency"

[Vudoo4u2]

Originally Posted by dd1981

Huh lag on the n55! Umm im not sure how you came to this theory but there is virtualy no lag on my n55. Its smother, crispier throttle response then the previous n54. I think you need to go drive it again and really pay attention.

Back to m3/m4 discussion now....

Not to flame...I respect the N54/55...had the N54 for 4 years, have driven the N55...

There is a noticeable lag on both N54 and N55 when comparing to the S65. Doesn't make them bad engines, just turbo vs NA.

This is what people are concerned about when moving to turbo for the next M series. The directness of the throttle-->power is amazing on the current S65, and would take some technological gadgetry to match with a turbo application....which it seems BMW is working on, I'm sure they're aware.

Electric turbo is an interesting concept

[Wedge1967]

Well, I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but I don't know of any n54 engine failures due to Vishnu's tune. Please feel free to elaborate on your vast knowledge of engine failures prior to 100k excluding the idiots who money shift and over rev the engine.

Originally Posted by e46e92love

No, they should not take notes from Vishnu because BMW prefers their engines to last 100k miles and not blow up before hand.

Cheers,
e46e92

[Uli_HH]

Originally Posted by m3alabama

I'm not sure why there is such speculation anymore. I think it is actually pretty clear what the engine will be with enough hints by now.

Inline 6 similar 3L design to N55 roughly

1 electric turbo and 2 regular turbos-this is absolutely a must and 100 percent going to happen. Evidence is the fact by inventing the amazing S63 engine design to incorporate turbo's into the V to purposefully address the "lag" you know they are very aware of this issue. Since you cannot do that same design with an inline 6 (obviously) the only other option is to use an electric turbo to offer NA-like throttle response that they have already proved is important to them enough to design a whole engine around it in the N/S63.

2.7200-7400 RPM redline. Again evidenced by the 7200 redline in the M5 shows they recognize the importance of a "relatively" high revving M powerplant with a linear power curve and NA-like power curve that is linear and both strong down-low but nice and strong uptop for the race-track

3.Will have next generation valvetronic allowing the higher redline and linear power curve in the context of a turbo engine

4. Will make 450-475 hp and 400 foot pounds

What is left to wonder about?

You are right with this probably worst case scenario ... and BMW marketing make this to an unique and special engine worth the Myth of all former M engines.

Re-inforcing the block, add an bigger turbo system and install an newer valvetronic isn´t that difference what I quote "heavily redesigned".

Installing the eTurbo to generate an N/A feeling is an not M worthy aproach, if the N/A feeling come only from the eTurbo and an clever electronic and not from great and innovative turbo design like the S63Tü ... and has nothing to do with the great engine development of BMW M until now.
For me an M needs an great engine by great development and not an AG mass production engine on which electronics made him feel like an great engine. Being is not the same as just feeling !!!

Greets Uli_HH

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by m3alabama

Not sure why you are ignoring several seperate indepedant dyno's out there for the 1M showing indeed right around 400 crank hp! You simply cannot get 330 whp without right around 400 crank. Call it 385 if you will-nonetheless M used a basically stock n54 engine with no core changes and ramped up boost to get NEARLY 400 crank hp.

So you are saying 6 years later (that is how old the 1M technology n54 is atleast), they are unable to extract 50 more hp from a similar engine with upgraded turbo's and a valvetrain?? Sorry man I think you are way off. 50 more hp with a new set of turbos running a lower boost would likely easily get 50 hp if they were slightly bigger and this would be even less strained then the current pair of smaller snails which is still unstressed on the 1M.

You should really look through more of the 1M dyno's around. Watch any race or drag on youtube and the 1M is neck and neck with the m3 in a straight line from a roll (eliminating benefit of all low end torque). The 1M makes an easy 380 crank hp and there really is no debate if you believe in a 15 percent dyno loss which is exactly what is used with a typical m3 putting down 350 whp to get a crank of 414ish.

A bored and stroked 3.3 litre block with 3 turbos would EASILY put out 550 hp I have no doubt which clearly they would never do which is why they would never incur the extreme cost of a one-off increased displaced engine when their power goal is EASILY met with a 3.0L.

And it will reve to 7200 RPMS ATLEAST.

Yes or no?

The key debate here is if BMW will in the near term produce a 3.0 liter engine with either 450 or 500 hp. My view, stated in multiple post above is very unlikely for the 450 level and pretty well impossible for the 500 for at least a couple of generations. Not impossible technically but impossible from an OEMs PRACTICAL perspective!

The specifics of the dynos of the 1M are not at all the key issue. The key issue here is also not the new M3's engine, head, valvetrain and internals. All of those probably are ALREADY good for a MODDED 500 hp.

Again the issues and rationale for my conclusion are:

1. This is an OEM we are talking about not a modder. It makes a world of difference.
2. All of the external and non turbo systems of the engine are the ones that an OEM will demand and engineer to be significantly upgraded to handle the higher power, heat levels and lubrication issues. These upgrades are costly. An engine is a complex system it just isn't as simple as the modder approach with modded software and more boost and "yer good to go".
3. BMW is on an important multi-year portfolio simplification with a plan to save costs and increase profits through massive re-use of common components and systems including engines across a huge range of models. Curiously enough this point could be used to argue for the 3.0 liter engine and against a 3.0 liter engine at the same time.
4. The next M3 and M4 are unlikely to have specific power outputs (hp/l) that exceed mature high end FI cars like the Porsche Turbo and McLaren MP4-12C.

Please re-read this. It is not about what is or is not possible from a modding nor technical perspective. It is about what this large OEM can do while VERY meticulously managing it hugely important cost reduction program with OEM levels of product integrity and reliability.

I think I've said everything I need to support my case at least twice. Feel free to disagree but in my opinion you have not made a strong case.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by dd1981

Huh lag on the n55! Umm im not sure how you came to this theory but there is virtualy no lag on my n55.
...
I think you need to go drive it again and really pay attention.

Back to m3/m4 discussion now....

OK. You sir need to go drive an M3, say especially with the M-DCT and for kicks adjust the throttle to sport mode (or whatever they call it...). Lastly drive it on a track with plenty of opportunity for quick and wide throttle swings. This car has throttle response that makes the n55 feel like it has a huge single laggy turbo.

[Bdh821]

Originally Posted by swamp2

OK. You sir need to go drive an M3, say especially with the M-DCT and for kicks adjust the throttle to sport mode (or whatever they call it...). Lastly drive it on a track with plenty of opportunity for quick and wide throttle swings. This car has throttle response that makes the n55 feel like it has a huge single laggy turbo.

100% agree with this statement. I hate how people say the N54/N55 has no lag. It has horrible lag. I can't say I noticed it as much, until driving a E46 and E92 M3. This is also why I'm worried about a new turbo M3

[robbieracer]

I saw this car covered with a tarp on May 21st when I visited the BMW facilities. It's right up front when you enter the museum. There was a man in a suit(30ish) guarding it so no one would take a peak under the tarp. I spoke with him a little and asked what it was, he wouldn't say. I then said, "it's the new M3 isn't it"? He just smiled and said he couldn't say anything. He said they were doing a private showing that evening and the official release would be in 2 - 3 months. I'm thinking it'll be released/announced around the Olympics since it's only 3 weeks away. They had the rim showing when I was there too. I was almost positive it was the M3 with that rim, and also the 275 tire. But, as someone mentioned it could be the F32, so who knows. I'm hoping it'll be the new M3. After I did the museum tour and I stopped and talked with him some more, but he wouldn't say anything, only smile after I mentioned the M3.... ???

[dd1981]

Originally Posted by swamp2

OK. You sir need to go drive an M3, say especially with the M-DCT and for kicks adjust the throttle to sport mode (or whatever they call it...). Lastly drive it on a track with plenty of opportunity for quick and wide throttle swings. This car has throttle response that makes the n55 feel like it has a huge single laggy turbo.

I have driven an e46 and e92 m3's both in manual however and set on sport. You cant compare throttle response with an NA m3 and an n55. Let alone a purpose built track car such as m3. But go drive an n54 car and go drive an n55 car and youll see the difference man. It wasnt a fair statement on your part. Go test a few other turbo cars and compare it. Then youll say bmw did an awesome job uskng twin scroll technology.

I dont see what you didnt like about having full 300lbs of torque at 1200rpm. Its not m3 power but it just wasnt entirely an accurate statement from you.

You didnt specify anything about an n55 335 that you drove as a track car such as you use your m3.

[Uli_HH]

Originally Posted by robbieracer

I saw this car covered with a tarp on May 21st when I visited the BMW facilities. It's right up front when you enter the museum. There was a man in a suit(30ish) guarding it so no one would take a peak under the tarp. I spoke with him a little and asked what it was, he wouldn't say. I then said, "it's the new M3 isn't it"? He just smiled and said he couldn't say anything. He said they were doing a private showing that evening and the official release would be in 2 - 3 months. I'm thinking it'll be released/announced around the Olympics since it's only 3 weeks away. They had the rim showing when I was there too. I was almost positive it was the M3 with that rim, and also the 275 tire. But, as someone mentioned it could be the F32, so who knows. I'm hoping it'll be the new M3. After I did the museum tour and I stopped and talked with him some more, but he wouldn't say anything, only smile after I mentioned the M3.... ???

Nice to hear!

One important question as you are one who see it in real ... according to all spypic we have seen, the F32 4er and the F82 M4 would get an greenhouse in fastback style ... would you say the back of the car under the tarp has this style or was it more an limo greenhouse like the F30 ... if it was the second alternative than it could be really the F80 M3.

One in an other forum quotes that it was no 2 on the strip, but an Z ... so there was written FIZ - standing for BMW Group Forschungs- und InnovationsZentrum - instead of F82.

[southlight]

There's no way the F80 M3 will be unveiled in 2 or 3 months, let alone the F82. So assumed that info is correct we're likely looking at an E92 M3 edition (CSL?).


Best regards,
south

[Uli_HH]

Originally Posted by dd1981

I have driven an e46 and e92 m3's both in manual however and set on sport. You cant compare throttle response with an NA m3 and an n55. Let alone a purpose built track car such as m3. But go drive an n54 car and go drive an n55 car and youll see the difference man. It wasnt a fair statement on your part. Go test a few other turbo cars and compare it. Then youll say bmw did an awesome job uskng twin scroll technology.

I dont see what you didnt like about having full 300lbs of torque at 1200rpm. Its not m3 power but it just wasnt entirely an accurate statement from you.

You didnt specify anything about an n55 335 that you drove as a track car such as you use your m3.

None ... also swamp2 not ... says that the N54/N55 isn´t an real good car ... but its an sporty sedan/coupe where the M3 is an real sportscar in sedan/coupe-outfit.

An with your statement about 300lbs of torque ar 1200 rpm you shows that you don´t understand the HDZ (Hochdrehzahl) principle ... where the engine revs so fast that it doesn´t need so much torque on low rpm like an standard engine like the N54/55 ... lock at the Formular 1 and how this engines work. you have driven the M3 as manual, but as swamp2 says the full advantage of HDZ you get only with an M-DCT car ... put the car in D5 (to avoid driver influence!) mode and press the "pedal to the metal" and you would see what M3-Drivers mean when they talk about trottle responce!

Hope you understand now why the M3-Fans and-Drivers are affraid of an M engine with the trottle resonce of an 335i.

[Uli_HH]

Originally Posted by southlight

There's no way the F80 M3 will be unveiled in 2 or 3 months, let alone the F82. So assumed that info is correct we're likely looking at an E92 M3 edition (CSL?).


Best regards,
south

You are totally right this chance is near zero (F80M3) ... BUT there is still an very (very) little possibility for an really big surprice ... BMW has strong links with the london olympics and this year is the 40-birthday of the M-GmbH - both are special and unique events which never come back in this combination ... what an great possibility to present an great Sportscar with Myth and Tradition.