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      07-11-2012, 02:54 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Well I used the rumored numbers. Mine are the M3 E90 is 100 kg lighter than the M3 F80, 50 kg lighter than 335i F30.
But is the F80 vs. E90 number (difference) even known precisely and firmly yet?
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      07-11-2012, 03:25 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
But is the F80 vs. E90 number (difference) even known precisely and firmly yet?

No. The only thing I got to know 1-2 years ago is that the M3 F80 would be lighter than the M3 E46. I don't think by that much, that is why I speculate at these approximate numbers :

M3 E9X : 1650 kg (EU)
M3 E46 : 1570 kg (EU)
M3 F80 : 1550 kg (EU)
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      07-12-2012, 08:14 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Levi View Post
No. The only thing I got to know 1-2 years ago is that the M3 F80 would be lighter than the M3 E46. I don't think by that much, that is why I speculate at these approximate numbers :

M3 E9X : 1650 kg (EU)
M3 E46 : 1570 kg (EU)
M3 F80 : 1550 kg (EU)
About the weight ... all infos I get, is that it would be lighter than the F30 335i and the number was < 1450kg (nothing about if this meen EU, DIN or empty weight) ... because of SGL Carbon all think that this weight reduction was made by useing carbon body parts together re-inforced steal ... but as Scott26 quotes the real new thing is that the F8x chassis was made complety from aluminium instead of useing steel as by the F3x ... so with an chassis made from light aluminium together with parts made from industrial carbon and body panels made either from aluminium and plastic ... the under 1450kg numbers seems not impossible(!) ... but also Scott26 says that only the F82 roof was made from carbon ... I think thats also right, but I never thought that outer body panels would be made of carbon ... my infos speaks about some inner body parts.
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      07-13-2012, 01:49 AM   #26
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There are existing composite body parts on the current M3, the front fenders and perhaps others that are SMC (sheet molding compound). It is a fiber and binder just like CF but much less exotic fibers (not carbon) and less exotic binder. In short they are much less cheaper and much less strong. Anyway, the point is that these are already very light and handle the relatively minor aero and NVH loads quite well. You can't save much weight here. These parts are not a good choice for CF as the parts are entirely non load bearing. Doors might be a possible choice though for real CF since they are key load bearing items in side crash scenario.

A completely aluminum chassis would represent a milestone for BMW however, Audi did this a long long time ago but if I recall correctly in their first try at it did not save much weight.

I'm not following the base car closely enough but isn't it mature enough that we know what it is built from? I highly doubt there will be a different chassis between the base and M car. That is simply unaffordable
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      07-13-2012, 04:10 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I'm not following the base car closely enough but isn't it mature enough that we know what it is built from? I highly doubt there will be a different chassis between the base and M car. That is simply unaffordable
Scott26 quotes this ... and the full aluminium chassis is probably one reason for the internal renaming into F8x for these chassis.

Affordable? Okay, probably not so much - on the first view! BUT the M3/M4 is an High-Price and Low-Production car = the best solution to test production processes for new materials before entering mass production ... and this is the main reason why BMW officials say that "...they would surprice us with this car"
I think the weight would be the real surprice with the new M3/M4 ... an (much) lower weight means much better (lower) fuel consumption (real world!) also without engine changes!

Unaffordable? Maybe - on the first view ... but with the splitting into M3 and M4 cars, they could make the M3 easy more affordable by marketing the M4 as more premium and more costly, because it seems like many current M-drivers are "Coupe and nothing else"-Fanboys this strategy could works well ... and so the probably much higher price for the M4 (look at M5 vs. M6) could help to hold the M3 on an affordable price level.
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      07-13-2012, 03:28 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
Scott26 quotes this ... and the full aluminium chassis is probably one reason for the internal renaming into F8x for these chassis.

Affordable? Okay, probably not so much - on the first view! BUT the M3/M4 is an High-Price and Low-Production car = the best solution to test production processes for new materials before entering mass production ... and this is the main reason why BMW officials say that "...they would surprice us with this car"
I think the weight would be the real surprice with the new M3/M4 ... an (much) lower weight means much better (lower) fuel consumption (real world!) also without engine changes!

Unaffordable? Maybe - on the first view ... but with the splitting into M3 and M4 cars, they could make the M3 easy more affordable by marketing the M4 as more premium and more costly, because it seems like many current M-drivers are "Coupe and nothing else"-Fanboys this strategy could works well ... and so the probably much higher price for the M4 (look at M5 vs. M6) could help to hold the M3 on an affordable price level.
Good info and good point about "warming up" to full aluminum in smaller volumes. I missed the original quote.

To clarify, this makes the rumor/speculation:

F80 = 4 door M3, aluminum chassis not shared with F30
F82 = 2 door M4, aluminum chassis, not shared with F32

?
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      07-14-2012, 08:18 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
To clarify, this makes the rumor/speculation:

F80 = 4 door M3, aluminum chassis not shared with F30
F82 = 2 door M4, aluminum chassis, not shared with F32

?
That's essentially it, yes swamp, as far as prevailing rumor goes at the present time.

However, let me say that "not shared" is likely too strong a word. What I think we will see is significantly more changes from the 3 (and new 4) series body shells in the transformation to an M vehicle than what we have come to expect. That is to say that there will likely be liberal use of aluminum in order to bring weight down. Maybe this means that instead of M just snatching already-welded body-in-white assemblies from their assembly line, the M transformation starts much earlier, with its own unique aluminum enhanced unibodies built from the ground up right along side the all-steel Series counterparts.

Secondarily, when it comes to the bolt-ons that attach directly to the chassis such as subframes and suspension components, I think M will go out of their way to see that they come up with something lighter than the 3(/4) series rather than ending up with something that weighs more as has been the case with all, or at least most, M3s in the past. E.g., lets see what we can do about making this:



A little more efficient. You may point out that there is already aluminum there, and indeed the same holds true for the 3 series as well. But there is also a lot of steel too, so there is room for some improvement, at least theoretically. Also this is just the rear, there is also the front too.

Note that this is all just my guesswork. But there is only so many ways to go light-weight, and if aluminum is to be a key ingredient for that recipe, then I think this is a very plausible scenario.
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      07-14-2012, 08:40 AM   #30
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Very possible. Already now many think the M3 E92 is not much better than the 335i E92, yet many parts and the engine are different, how will BMW justify the M3 much more expensive, being a better car than the 335i when they both have the "same" engine ? There have to be other huge differences that will not be able to be retrofited on a normal 335i.
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      07-14-2012, 10:28 PM   #31
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There would be nothing particularly novel about a rear aluminum subframe. I think this BMW aluminum subframe is from the 5er. That is a very long way from a full aluminum chassis of course.

The existing front subframe is already aluminum so nothing radical to change there.
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Last edited by swamp2; 07-14-2012 at 10:37 PM.
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      07-15-2012, 08:56 AM   #32
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Point taken swamp, but the fact remains that this is an example of how BMW could theoretically realize weight savings in the the M3/M4.
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