The $80,000 BMW M3

[hwelvaar]

I said it many times before on bimmerpost fora:
[USA] does not equal [the world]

It's not because Americans fancy V8s in their cars and pull up their nose for anything that has only 4 cylinders, that the rest of the world does.

If taxes and oil prices elsewhere were as low as in the US, everybody would drive V8s. But reality is different.

[Carl L]

Considering the huge amount of changes M make to the 3-series to make an M3 it's a wonder they make money on the cars. It's not just the treatment most high-performance models get from other companies which is a big engine stuffed in and body work glued on. I think the new F80/82 model will cost barely more than the last. A few people where whining that the F10 M5 would base at more than 100 grand which I rubbished on M5board years ago.

If you want a new car with massive power there is the 2013 Mustang Shelby. One helluva fast car for the money. BMW will price the M3 to sell and so long as they follow the tiny pricing increase from E60 M5 to F10 M5 then I'll be a buyer. Only concern is that the new 4-series shoot off may be positioned a little higher, but the market won't bare anything silly.

[DoD74]

Originally Posted by aelahi

I have to disagree, I believe the M3 only shares about 40% with the regular 3 series... everything else was exclusively designed for the M badge. The heart & sole of the M3 is completely different than the regular 3 series badge.

I am not arguing that the M3 is not a clone of a 3 series, but it is built off of that platform. My point is simply that the price has increased significantly on the E9x over the previous generation. And considering that you still have to pay to add the iDrive, or even something as simple as electric seats or auto dimming mirrors it makes even less sense. I would expect a car that is the caliber of the M3 and that starts around the $60k mark to have iDrive and power seats standard. The math just doesn't make sense for me personally. You can tune a 335 for a couple of thousand dollars, get the same performance as a stock M3 and still be $10k under an M3 price. Is it an M3, no. But with the additional torque and power and the removal of the limiters it's a lot of speed and power for the money. And it still has all of the amenities added for less than a base M3 without any of those features costs. Again, it's just my opinion, but part of what always made the M3 the perfect car to me, was the amount of car you got for the money. Nothing in the $50k class could touch one. But the scale changes dramatically from $50k to $70-80k for me. Is it still a great car, absolutely. Is it worth $20k more than the 335 I bought? After driving both, it just isn't to me. I drove an M3 for a couple of days before I ordered my 335 to help me decide what to buy, and I just couldn't honestly say that the M3 was $20 grand better. Many may agree or disagree and that's fine, but to me there are just too many options out there at the $80k price point, and it just doesn't make sense to me anymore.

[Majdnoon]

I disagree with everyone crying for iDrive, heated/electric seats, etc to be standard. What I think BMW should do is keep those as options (since they add unnecessary weight, bad for the car enthusiast) and lower the price of the car as a whole.

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by dcg71

lol... you'll get no sympathy from the rest of the world. Try $180K.

Yep. And even much more again in Asia (try Singapore!)

US drivers are spoiled in terms of car/fuel prices.

Now, the housing bust (home 'ATM' goes away) and the lack of growth of incomes of the '90%' over the last decade or more are making these cars relatively less affordable - at least the EUR/USD has come down.

But an e46 M3 was in the high $40s. So the delta on prices has been meaningful.

Edit: have to admit that an $80k M4 will have me looking seriously at a lightly-used 991 CS2 for $15k more.

[richardg]

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

Yep. And even much more again in Asia (try Singapore!)

US drivers are spoiled in terms of car/fuel prices.

Now, the housing bust (home 'ATM' goes away) and the lack of growth of incomes of the '90%' over the last decade or more are making these cars relatively less affordable - at least the EUR/USD has come down.

But an e46 M3 was in the high $40s. So the delta on prices has been meaningful.

Edit: have to admit that an $80k M4 will have me looking seriously at a lightly-used 991 CS2 for $15k more.

Agreed. As for other metal at 80k I would consider an R8 but I shouldn't and probably won't.

[96_Impreza]

Originally Posted by Skullbussa

....$80k for a car that will be, to many eyes, virtually indistinguishable from its $30k+ cheaper cousin (328) is not a car that will be very marketable in the US, a country where many people who choose to spend $80,000 will want every other person to know just how much money they spent on a car.....

Almost two centuries ago Alexis de Tocqueville drove a base model Prius and was well-received in the USA.

[Envyscorpio]

And I think that is the reason BMW made the 1M and maybe a future M2/2M! So its a little more pocket friendly to the majority of potential customers.

BMW got some peps hooked, including myself going crazy for the car because of the "M". I say we're screwed if the next M3 is a great performer. Till then, I'm content with my E46 and E90 M Don't want to be the test subjects for BMW on new engine and new technologies.

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by 96_Impreza

Almost two centuries ago Alexis de Tocqueville drove a base model Prius and was well-received in the USA.

Now this is a fanciful response!

[TTG]

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

Yep. And even much more again in Asia (try Singapore!)

US drivers are spoiled in terms of car/fuel prices.

Now, the housing bust (home 'ATM' goes away) and the lack of growth of incomes of the '90%' over the last decade or more are making these cars relatively less affordable - at least the EUR/USD has come down.

+1 We get these cars for nothing compared to the rest of the world....

I just sold my M3 and I can not wait for the new one to come out :-)

[conradb]

I've been saying this for some time now. BMW may need to split the M3 into two different cars. I'm looking to focus more on a track car, and many others want fast luxury. We'll see how the pricing works out on all this, and whether or not there will be a legit track package. The M3 GTS should have been the $10k upgrade for the M3.

This time around BMW really doesn't have much of an excuse. They've basically creeped into the GT-R/Vette Z06+Z07 Pack territory in pricing, but they fall flat on their face in performance. When a $30k American Muscle car sets the same pace as you on the track, you really need to step it up to the next level.

Honestly, if the car doesn't drop 150-200lbs, get about 500HP, no track package with light/wider rims, body bracing, track magnetic suspension, and CCBs, I'm probably going to leave BMW for a Vette Z06 + Z07 pack and just lease a F30 328i for my DD and do ED on it. As much fun as the E92 M3 I have is on the track, I feel like shit when I get passed up with little effort by the GT-R's that cost only like $10-15k more; not to mention the Vettes and Mustangs people can turn into race cars for pennies comparatively.

[Renus]

Originally Posted by dcg71

Not bad mate Roughly $50K of the $180K would be tax. It's a kicker, but still doesn't account for the huge price difference. BMW Australia can probably be blamed for the rest.



M3 is still my pick. Nissan GT-R is closer to $200K. 911 is quite a step up again.

Yes median income is higher, but I don't necessarily agree with significantly. Certainly not enough to justify the price differences. As a fellow enthusiast I'd love to see a more affordable M3.

In HK, E92 M3 selling almost the same price like in Aus, half of the price is Gov taxes, but u will be shocked M3 even higher than HK that selling in China.

[Jonjt]

Originally Posted by conradb

I've been saying this for some time now. BMW may need to split the M3 into two different cars. I'm looking to focus more on a track car, and many others want fast luxury. We'll see how the pricing works out on all this, and whether or not there will be a legit track package. The M3 GTS should have been the $10k upgrade for the M3.

This time around BMW really doesn't have much of an excuse. They've basically creeped into the GT-R/Vette Z06+Z07 Pack territory in pricing, but they fall flat on their face in performance. When a $30k American Muscle car sets the same pace as you on the track, you really need to step it up to the next level.

Honestly, if the car doesn't drop 150-200lbs, get about 500HP, no track package with light/wider rims, body bracing, track magnetic suspension, and CCBs, I'm probably going to leave BMW for a Vette Z06 + Z07 pack and just lease a F30 328i for my DD and do ED on it. As much fun as the E92 M3 I have is on the track, I feel like shit when I get passed up with little effort by the GT-R's that cost only like $10-15k more; not to mention the Vettes and Mustangs people can turn into race cars for pennies comparatively.

I've never thought of the M cars are race cars. I fully believe they were never meant to be. They are fast luxury, as you put it. The car's you are comparing the M3 too are spartan sports cars or spartan, street legal race cars with a DOT stamp of approval. The M3 isn't really comparable to the Vette or a loaded BOSS 302, it's comparable to the RS4/5, maybe the Gran Turismo, maybe the baby Aston, maybe the SRT8 cars (if you've got no taste), the C63 AMG and the CTS-V, that's it.

[Bunkei]

I for one think that BMWs are extremely overpriced brand new, but can be bargains gently used. Honestly, my goal was to get an M3, but given the sky high prices and the fact that I'm nowhere near the 1%, I'd have to get a 4 or 5 year old M3 for it to be affordable. Heck, it's not even feasible for me to afford a 1 or 2 year old 335i.

Then, there's the competition. For the price of a loaded new 335i, I could buy a Camaro ZL1. Now, I personally wouldn't buy a Camaro (mainly for aesthetic reasons), but it does point out that the gap between the competition and BMW is rapidly shrinking. However, BMW knows that people are willing to pay almost any sum of money simply for the privilege of saying they own one, and there's nothing wrong with that.

The Boss 302 also has compelling performance for a lot less money, and is due for a redesign along with the entire model range (this time with a IRS) for 2014.

The Infiniti G is also due for a major redesign, a car recognized by Car and Driver just a couple of months ago for the best steering (even compared to the BMW).

You have the new lightweight ATS, although most eyes are on the inevitably-planned ATS-V.

Then there's the car I'm looking at .. the new Chevy SS that will be the new flagship for the Chevy brand. Available with two V8 options (no V6) and a manual transmission. All for about $40K.

It's a crowded market. The M3 must have the goods to be worthy of its premium price tag. If not, there will be cheaper alternatives that will provide 90% of the performance for 25% less money. That's certainly a scenario I can live with.

[dd1981]

Originally Posted by conradb

I've been saying this for some time now. BMW may need to split the M3 into two different cars. I'm looking to focus more on a track car, and many others want fast luxury. We'll see how the pricing works out on all this, and whether or not there will be a legit track package. The M3 GTS should have been the $10k upgrade for the M3.

This time around BMW really doesn't have much of an excuse. They've basically creeped into the GT-R/Vette Z06+Z07 Pack territory in pricing, but they fall flat on their face in performance. When a $30k American Muscle car sets the same pace as you on the track, you really need to step it up to the next level.

Honestly, if the car doesn't drop 150-200lbs, get about 500HP, no track package with light/wider rims, body bracing, track magnetic suspension, and CCBs, I'm probably going to leave BMW for a Vette Z06 + Z07 pack and just lease a F30 328i for my DD and do ED on it. As much fun as the E92 M3 I have is on the track, I feel like shit when I get passed up with little effort by the GT-R's that cost only like $10-15k more; not to mention the Vettes and Mustangs people can turn into race cars for pennies comparatively.

That boss 302 is no joke at 45k. 25k less then M3 and it would walk it on the track. The z06 is just insane performance for 70K! Id pick that over a 80k m3.

[335REGULATION]

You guys are lucky!!! 75k + here for a fully loaded 335i. 105k + for a fully loaded M3.

[Carl L]

Originally Posted by dd1981

That boss 302 is no joke at 45k. 25k less then M3 and it would walk it on the track. The z06 is just insane performance for 70K! Id pick that over a 80k m3.

Great points, beacuse we all know how well the 2-seater, Fisher-Price interior Z06 that traps 125mph stock is a rival for the M3.

[dd1981]

Originally Posted by Carl Lassiter

Great points, beacuse we all know how well the 2-seater, Fisher-Price interior Z06 that traps 125mph stock is a rival for the M3.

I would not call it a rival, but Im just comparing performance and pricing is all. ANd I wasnt talking about the 1/4 mile either. The boss 302 is more of a rival for the m3. But if interior refinement is what you're after look elsewhere I guess.

Youre right the corvette no matter trim from regular c6 to ZR1 all look cheap as hell on the inside. Mustang is a bit plasticky looking as well, but Id still pick it over the vette interior.

[cged14]

Originally Posted by dd1981

I would not call it a rival, but Im just comparing performance and pricing is all. ANd I wasnt talking about the 1/4 mile either. The boss 302 is more of a rival for the m3. But if interior refinement is what you're after look elsewhere I guess.

Youre right the corvette no matter trim from regular c6 to ZR1 all look cheap as hell on the inside. Mustang is a bit plasticky looking as well, but Id still pick it over the vette interior.

agreed...but if Chevy pulls a fast one on us with gen 7, the comparisons might get taken a little more seriously, even if the markets are different.

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

I for one think that BMWs are extremely overpriced brand new, but can be bargains gently used. Honestly, my goal was to get an M3, but given the sky high prices and the fact that I'm nowhere near the 1%, I'd have to get a 4 or 5 year old M3 for it to be affordable. Heck, it's not even feasible for me to afford a 1 or 2 year old 335i.

Then, there's the competition. For the price of a loaded new 335i, I could buy a Camaro ZL1. Now, I personally wouldn't buy a Camaro (mainly for aesthetic reasons), but it does point out that the gap between the competition and BMW is rapidly shrinking. However, BMW knows that people are willing to pay almost any sum of money simply for the privilege of saying they own one, and there's nothing wrong with that.

The Boss 302 also has compelling performance for a lot less money, and is due for a redesign along with the entire model range (this time with a IRS) for 2014.

The Infiniti G is also due for a major redesign, a car recognized by Car and Driver just a couple of months ago for the best steering (even compared to the BMW).

You have the new lightweight ATS, although most eyes are on the inevitably-planned ATS-V.

Then there's the car I'm looking at .. the new Chevy SS that will be the new flagship for the Chevy brand. Available with two V8 options (no V6) and a manual transmission. All for about $40K.

It's a crowded market. The M3 must have the goods to be worthy of its premium price tag. If not, there will be cheaper alternatives that will provide 90% of the performance for 25% less money. That's certainly a scenario I can live with.

I concur with this. Interesting there's a recent article in Car & Driver (a magazine always known to favor BMW's) comparing the M6 with the Camaro ZL1.

C&D clearly stated the M6 is the superior car in practically every way. However, at twice the price of the ZL1, is the M6 twice as good? They didn't think so. I'm inclined to agree.

I'm in Canada where the M3 is ~$10K more than in the US even though our dollar is currently worth more. I'll be back in the market soon and looking at the F80, but if they price it any more than the E90 M3, I'm likely going somewhere else.

[cged14]

Originally Posted by conradb

I've been saying this for some time now. BMW may need to split the M3 into two different cars. I'm looking to focus more on a track car, and many others want fast luxury. We'll see how the pricing works out on all this, and whether or not there will be a legit track package. The M3 GTS should have been the $10k upgrade for the M3.

This time around BMW really doesn't have much of an excuse. They've basically creeped into the GT-R/Vette Z06+Z07 Pack territory in pricing, but they fall flat on their face in performance. When a $30k American Muscle car sets the same pace as you on the track, you really need to step it up to the next level.

Honestly, if the car doesn't drop 150-200lbs, get about 500HP, no track package with light/wider rims, body bracing, track magnetic suspension, and CCBs, I'm probably going to leave BMW for a Vette Z06 + Z07 pack and just lease a F30 328i for my DD and do ED on it. As much fun as the E92 M3 I have is on the track, I feel like shit when I get passed up with little effort by the GT-R's that cost only like $10-15k more; not to mention the Vettes and Mustangs people can turn into race cars for pennies comparatively.

i feel like this is what they're attempting to do with the m-performance line...but like a lot of their series, they're growing up a little too much and losing the point.

[weaksauce]

Originally Posted by Skullbussa

Furthermore, BMW cannot continue to rely upon heavily-subsidized lease rates to make BMWs affordable to people who are in the "99%".

To be in the top "1%", your AGI has to be over 343K per year. I doubt you would be complaining about an 80K car with an AGI like that. So, are you saying that they should not make BMW's affordable to you?