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      05-17-2012, 04:27 AM   #1
seanwillnotreturn
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BMW renames M3 M4 only for the innocent

Makers consider nothing but profit, so does BMW.

M3 a icon? of course it is, what a emotional slogan dealers like to use to sell.

See what's truth behind? When you think M3 is all about performance, BMW tells you M3 sedan is a comfortable daily ride and it's "a very important part of M3 concept". The ironic thing is, comfortable sedan holds a marginal performance advantage against "pure uncompromised racing car M3 coupe".

And now what? BMW holds release of next gen of F80 Mx because M3 coupe still sells good, but wow stops production of sedan cuz nobody orders one. Nothing to judge and i am no one to judge.

But figure out why it is what it is? The innocent think coupe is born to be uprated varient and with a new series name it looks like a better class.

Imagine what kind of shit you'd think of a A5 if it's named A4 coupe? BMW must have been annoyed sharing coupe market with German counterpart and figured why A5/S5 sells better than it should (sry for being judgmental). The answer is: the innocent think 5 is better than 4. But when you are asked to spend a lot more to get 330i coupe than sedan, few will give a fuck at all (sry 330i coupe owner). And what should it have been if it's called 430i coupe? Isnt it just a name that sort of turns you on?

See this is how BMW like to follow? You really think BMW will change its mind of the whole renaming thing just because of how unsatisfied the boys in this forum (or anywhere all around world) will be? Oh come on. Just ask how many of you would cancel your order cuz it's named M4 if you are actually a serious buyer. And think how many innocent would be "surprised" by a "totally new" 2-door sportslike coupe model. They may know little about M but they're of a way bigger group than us enthusiast and they are more powerful potential buyers.

Last edited by seanwillnotreturn; 05-17-2012 at 04:50 AM.
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      05-17-2012, 04:40 AM   #2
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I award you the price for "most cynical first forum post."
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      05-17-2012, 04:57 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
I award you the price for "most cynical first forum post."
Price taken though i think i'm not cynical at all. And i like sedan more than coupe so it's good for me sedan will stay named m3 and coupe m4.
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      05-17-2012, 08:51 AM   #4
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IMO M3 Sedan caters to an important segment. There are folks who can use the functionality of 2 extra doors transporting their families while retaining bragging rights
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      05-17-2012, 10:12 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanwillnotreturn View Post
And now what? BMW holds release of next gen of F80 Mx because M3 coupe still sells good, but wow stops production of sedan cuz nobody orders one. Nothing to judge and i am no one to judge.
The M3 sedan wasn't stopped because of bad sales numbers, but because the 3 series sedan was due for a new model (F30). Once the E90 sedan stopped production and the F30 3 series sedan started production, there is no way BMW is going to continue producing an M3 sedan based on the old 3 series.

Just like when the E92/E93 3 series coupe/convertible stops production mid-late 2013, the E92/E93 M3 coupe will stop being produced also, regardless of how good its sales numbers are at that point.
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      05-17-2012, 12:32 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason View Post
The M3 sedan wasn't stopped because of bad sales numbers, but because the 3 series sedan was due for a new model (F30). Once the E90 sedan stopped production and the F30 3 series sedan started production, there is no way BMW is going to continue producing an M3 sedan based on the old 3 series.

Just like when the E92/E93 3 series coupe/convertible stops production mid-late 2013, the E92/E93 M3 coupe will stop being produced also, regardless of how good its sales numbers are at that point.
You've made your point but not much sense.

Porsche has published its 991 for 911, but 911 turbo is now still based on 997 and has not been stopped.

And technically, new 3 series cannot be counted as M3's successor.
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      05-17-2012, 01:18 PM   #7
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You've made your point but not much sense.
=============

Nah he makes sense..Just the way BMW does things..
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      05-17-2012, 01:28 PM   #8
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Of course they're doing it for the profit. They are a corporation in an incredibly competitive industry. Now I hate those people who will defend corporate greed or fraud "because it's a free market" or "you don't have to buy it if you don't like it": that's bullshit, BMW as a brand has actively developed and courted an enthusiast community if they do something to piss us off they should expect to hear about it.

However, this whole uproar over the name change from 3 to 4 boggles my mind. It's the dumbest thing. All they are changing is literally the name. It makes no difference. Every BMW enthusiast and fuck even any CAR enthusiast who follows industry developments will immediately know what you're talking about when you say 4-series.

The reality is that the coupe demographic is shopping for a slightly more premium car than the sedan demographic. BMW has always differentiated between those two types of customers by including more standard equipment on the coupe and selling it for a higher price. Now they will be able to differentiate the branding as well and include even more premium touches while being able to pass those costs onto the customer because it is not tied up with the 3 series sedan brand.

It's really not a big deal. I wish more enthusiasts were in uproar over the rumors of a V6 engine because regardless of whatever bullshit BMW might come up with to legitimize it, it is mechanically impossible for a V6 to be as smooth as an I6, much less the 90* V6 that is rumored whose angle won't even cancel out a lot of the vibrations that a 60* V6 would.
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      05-17-2012, 04:22 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanwillnotreturn View Post
You've made your point but not much sense.

Porsche has published its 991 for 911, but 911 turbo is now still based on 997 and has not been stopped.

And technically, new 3 series cannot be counted as M3's successor.
Quite the attitude with 3 posts under your belt. Yes, Porsche goes a different route which makes sense for them for various reason. M models however always follow the 'fate' of the models they're based on, e.g. EOP of the E90 was also EOP of the M3 sedan. As Jason pointed out, your assumption that BMW stopped M3 sedan production because nobody ordered one is factually incorrect.


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      05-19-2012, 12:46 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna_hp View Post
It's really not a big deal. I wish more enthusiasts were in uproar over the rumors of a V6 engine because regardless of whatever bullshit BMW might come up with to legitimize it, it is mechanically impossible for a V6 to be as smooth as an I6, much less the 90* V6 that is rumored whose angle won't even cancel out a lot of the vibrations that a 60* V6 would.
Agree on most of your comments except the one above.

I assume "smooth" is not exactly what we are expecting out of next gen, or it's not the most important thing for NA fans. i believe it's more about what it feels like to push rev up to close to 9k.

anti-V6 or anti-6 may be the biggest headache of the M maker, but i kind of understand what they concern about. I have a feeling M3 is not capable of handling big displacement engine, already seeing tyres spinning with 414hp and 400NM.

Look at Audi RS way, old 4.2L NA engine remapped to 450hp and it's done. M3 can follow---making existing stroked 4.4L M3 GTS engine some 460hp to wet everyone here and there. Isnt it just easy?

And we look at whole picture, m5m6x5mx6m 4.4 turbo, m3 4.4NA, terrific. Why wont BMW make it this way? i guess they figure 4.4NA is in fact not as good as we think. M3 GTS is good cuz of the combination of a couple of upgrade---- lightweight parts, suspension, tyre and already perfect M3 prototype, 4.4 stroke engine doesnt play the most important part.

a V6 turbo engine (not I6, ask engine experts you know I6 just cannot delivery as much as V6) can easily beat V8 NA in every aspects if we're not fans of high rev sound. We see how GTR, 911ts humiliate flashy Ferrari regarding engine performance.

M3 is already weak in drag race, maybe it's time to reverse the situation with a turbo.
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      05-19-2012, 12:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanwillnotreturn View Post
a V6 turbo engine (not I6, ask engine experts you know I6 just cannot delivery as much as V6) can easily beat V8 NA in every aspects if we're not fans of high rev sound.
Last time I checked cylinder configuration literally has nothing to do with the amount of power produced. The M3 is not about drag racing. It never has been, and I hope to god that it never will be. Also, it comes down to tradition. The only people that are okay with a V6 BMW (let a lone V6 M car) are new to the brand. And really the only reason that other manufacturers have switched to V-6's are because they are more compact and cheaper to make. Not because the perform better.
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      05-20-2012, 01:22 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by bimmerjph View Post
Last time I checked cylinder configuration literally has nothing to do with the amount of power produced.
Yes I had never read that either. Well I have read that upright inline configurations are conducive to higher torque and flat engine are conducive to higher RPM, but I've definitely never read anything that would imply that I6 engines have less performance potential to V6 engines.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerjph View Post
And really the only reason that other manufacturers have switched to V-6's are because they are more compact and cheaper to make. Not because the perform better.
Exactly. V6s are easier to fit into the engine bays of cars that would otherwise have I4 or V8 engines. The I6 is impossible to fit in pretty much any car with a transverse layout, so that right there prohibits the I6 from being used in the majority of passenger cars. It's also ~1/3 longer than a V8, so an annoyance for engineers to fit even into bigger engine bays. But the V6 is a compromise engine with inferior mechanical characteristics, so BMW has used the I6. Mercedes used to too, and now the news is that they're bringing them back.

BMW has said that that a V6 for the new M3/4 is a good compromise because (1) smoothness isn't as important in the performance model and (2) it contributes to a better weight balance. But I think that point one is just wrong it is important and point 2 is a false dichotomy: if they want to improve weight balance, they could also lighten other things at the front of the car besides the engine.
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      05-20-2012, 09:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerjph View Post
Last time I checked cylinder configuration literally has nothing to do with the amount of power produced. The M3 is not about drag racing. It never has been, and I hope to god that it never will be. Also, it comes down to tradition. The only people that are okay with a V6 BMW (let a lone V6 M car) are new to the brand. And really the only reason that other manufacturers have switched to V-6's are because they are more compact and cheaper to make. Not because the perform better.
i myself dont like a car that's nothing but a drag monster, but isnt it better than just nothing. If 458 italia is speced old 430 engine, i say it's not going to sell 1/10 number. Let me put it this way, engine may be the most important parts of a car regarding performance, but its "importance weight percentage" is still very low like 20% or whatever you name. If M3 score 75 of other 80, why doesnt it just grab 17 or 18 of this 20?

a "unique" spec like IX engine is good but i cannot deny V is in fact better and i can remember i once found source in this forum (no mention again ask engine professional) clarifying how V6 edge out I6. I was major in mechanism but i am no expert of engine notwithstanding i can say cooling or vibration stuff about I6 that limit the amout of power delivered.

And talking about easiler and cheaper, it's exactly the character I engine holds and exactly why BMW has been with it all along. It's kinda strange or is it just human nature that people always find something they call lineage (as if it truly was) to prove how better they know subjects?

I seldom see complaints on switch from I6 to V8 when E9X made debute. Where was the I-complex at that moment?

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      05-20-2012, 09:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanwillnotreturn View Post
It's kinda strange or is it just human nature that people always find something they call lineage (as if it truly was) to prove how better they know subjects?

I seldom see complaints on switch from I6 to V8 when E9X made debute. Where was the I-complex at that moment?
Because BMW has marketed the I6's advantage. We love the I6. We have driven V-6's and we still want an I6. BMW has never made a V-6 engine. They have only made an I4, I6, V8, V10, V-12, and they did a one off V-16. So yes there is tradition in the brand. The I6 is one of the traits that separates BMW from the competition.

There was some bitching about the E90 M3 if I recall. But it was still a high-revving NA engine derived from motorsports. The new F80 M3 will not be high revving NA engine, and it isn't derived from a race car. And I don't know if it will ever be used to race. DTM isn't turbo (I think), and LMS/ALMS are only turbo for diesels.


I am curious. How long have you had a BMW?

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      05-21-2012, 12:25 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerjph View Post
Because BMW has marketed the I6's advantage. We love the I6. We have driven V-6's and we still want an I6. BMW has never made a V-6 engine. They have only made an I4, I6, V8, V10, V-12, and they did a one off V-16. So yes there is tradition in the brand. The I6 is one of the traits that separates BMW from the competition.

There was some bitching about the E90 M3 if I recall. But it was still a high-revving NA engine derived from motorsports. The new F80 M3 will not be high revving NA engine, and it isn't derived from a race car. And I don't know if it will ever be used to race. DTM isn't turbo (I think), and LMS/ALMS are only turbo for diesels.


I am curious. How long have you had a BMW?
Not for long, since M3 set foot on China.

But i've been seeing for long how I6 325i (claimed 230+hp) struggles on competition with japanese Reiz (claimed 210+hp) V6 on straight (sry cornor is not much about engine).

Luck we have 8 cylinder "Ved", i doubt if it could make 350hp or rev at all if it'd have stayed I8...

But track back old times, E46 M3 with I6 did see its dominance, just too good to compete with other cars of its kind and E46 csl can even be the match of 996 RS. Things changed a little bit coming into E9X vs 997 era, if we say E9X can still handle 997.1s then 997.2(without s) can beat M3 both in drag race and track, we no longer invite 997 RS. It's not for M3 falling but for E46, a sedan based car, already too perfect to evolute, nothing can a V8 do to keep the crown.

Try think this way, you gotta ask yourself, with 4.4L tuned 460 NA V8, can M3/M4 beat 991s (only 400hp)? Only in your dream. But with 3.0/3.2/3.3 turbo? Maybe we are thinking about a showdown (after mod) with 991 turbo.

BMW ought to do it V6. The overall tax rates scales with engine size in many countries. For example in our region, 4.0+ is 250% while 3.0+ is 96%. People are paying 458 price to get M3. There are quite a few other countries out there more or less the same.

Last edited by seanwillnotreturn; 05-21-2012 at 06:38 AM.
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      05-21-2012, 03:01 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kueks29 View Post
Thanks Uli ... I know why I no longer buy the AudiBlöd!
Every week there are other "facts" in it and on and sold as if it were 100% sure ...
That may be the common tabloid readers might not notice particularly, but any halfway normal thinking person is suspicious ...
But once the M3 (F80) itself:

Release Date
The F80 is almost finished. In principle, it could in the spring of 2013 go on sale ...
Here, however, the Board has been vetoed and set the presentation at Geneva 2014th Background of that E92 and E93 further build-up and fall 2013 are available as M3 is!
The fear is that any more, "the old oldies" buy when the new M3 is available on the market ...

Engine
There were a variety of ideas and a few prototypes with different engines. Ultimately, unfortunately, the 3.0-liter R6-made ​​and based on the N55, the race as you have correctly said: For reasons of cost!
However, according to (not the idiot Audi) real insider info - changed about 75% of all parts of the engine.
Particular attention is probably on a revised firing order to improve the responsiveness of the turbos. Therefore, a different crankshaft ...
In addition, connecting rods and pistons lightened significantly in order to let the engine revving faster and easier ....
Someone told me of a comparison between M5 (F10), M3 (F80) and M3 (E92) on the highway at the end of 100-km/h-Begrenzung!
All three at the same time accelerating out ...
While the F80 and F10 in the same flight disappeared over the horizon, the reporter thought he would have with his E92 M3, just a better walker ...
In this respect it is hoped that the M3 truly dynamically along with the M5 at eye height is ... and I was impressed itself on a test drive with the M5-F10, as the dynamic pushes along ...
Therefore you are the tale of 420 hp safely forget ... According to insiders put 450 hp

Weight
Again, the Audi stupid again reported only superficial knowledge-not surprisingly
In fact, once the initial target of -200 kg compared to the series-335i-F30. But here are business principles and somi was found probably at about 150 kg of the break-even point.
This seems to be assumed to be about 1,450 kg of curb weight ... which is still respectable, because both E90 M3 (at least 1,600 kg), C63 (1.700 Kg) and the next RS4 (approx. 1780 kg) are significantly serious and should not be dynamically along faster with more power ...
But as for the transverse dynamics is expected, the F80 play in a league of its own ...

Personal Conclusion
We hear very little now, and if so, tell five people 10 different stories.
Also, I was more than burnt, as I read of a "pimped-series engine" alone is heard ... the battle cries of gechippten be a 335er spoil the fun of belonging in some respects ...
Also I like the politics of the extreme EBIT maximization does not clean! But you have to keep the M-GmbH good that they finally worked to cover costs ...
At the end it is only the general impression ... and it will be the M3 must be judged ...

It's like every time a new M3 is:
There is wild speculation, and long before the more details come to light, becomes all the more whined, bitched and nagging ...
Just before the presentation will be the "iconic M3" totgeredet and sentenced to die ... because the predecessor was so good and yes unbeaten in all aspects ...
All these theories are then supported in the presentation and in the first few weeks because the new has become soooo bad and boring ...
But no sooner have the first of the new and the first comparison appear in print and visual media, is suddenly the new M3 is the best ever and it has never doubted anyone

I don't care for the name change anymore; I care about the heart and with all the debate for a V6, this post by known insider Kueks brings some solace to my mind (if it is indeed true). There are times when heritage and tradition impede development and when it matters. This is the case where maintaining the I6/R6 development is of the utmost for BMW and for us who have stayed true to them for years.
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      05-21-2012, 05:27 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelloss View Post
I don't care for the name change anymore; I care about the heart and with all the debate for a V6, this post by known insider Kueks brings some solace to my mind (if it is indeed true). There are times when heritage and tradition impede development and when it matters. This is the case where maintaining the I6/R6 development is of the utmost for BMW and for us who have stayed true to them for years.
The problem is the BMW M3!

Name:
Previously, the M3 is the sporting flagship of the series. But that was due mainly to the coupe and the convertible a little. The sedan has always been the unloved stepchild.
Since parts of the series can be upgraded and 4 may be called, it is difficult even with the M3 ...

Of course, the term M3 its own brand and you should leave this alone and unloved valuable brand sedan, because actually need Coupe, Convertible Coupe and Grand then called M4. But who knows M4?

But as has been worked heavily on the body structure, the M3 also gets its own series designation. So not like the F30 series, but he will be called F80. And here's the back door of BMW's open:
So it would be possible to call the normal models (Coupe, Convertible, Coupe Grand) 4, set in the M-models, but to further the myth M3. would exitieren alongside the M3 sedan and M3 convertible and the M3 coupe.

Engine
Here BMW has the biggest problem! The M5 V10 has no more, but must make do with 8 cylinders.
At 1st there will be a 1M and will certainly have no 4-cylinder, as even the M135i has a I6. So here again is also provided a modified I6 from the M135i is serving.
Only one of the customers it will not teach you that the 1 and 3 have the same engine ... So, the M3 have something completely different!
I6 Although the tradition, but also the V-engine was not bad, as seen in the M5!

In this respect, one could sell the V-engines in the future as a special feature in the classical M-models, which has the 1M only a modified production engine, the customers get over the price!
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      05-21-2012, 06:53 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanwillnotreturn View Post
BMW ought to do it V6. The overall tax rates scales with engine size in many countries. For example in our region, 4.0+ is 250% while 3.0+ is 96%. People are paying 458 price to get M3. There are quite a few other countries out there more or less the same.
Cylinder configuration has nothing to do with displacement.
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      05-21-2012, 07:47 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanwillnotreturn View Post
i

a "unique" spec like IX engine is good but i cannot deny V is in fact better and i can remember i once found source in this forum (no mention again ask engine professional) clarifying how V6 edge out I6. I was major in mechanism but i am no expert of engine notwithstanding i can say cooling or vibration stuff about I6 that limit the amout of power delivered.
That's for sure.

I6's real disadvantage is the length of the crank. You reach a certain point where you overstress the crank and it is prone to damage. The V6 crank is shorter and therefore easier to protect. I'm keeping it very simple here, it is of course, more complicated than that.

The I6's second disadvantage is it's length. That makes for tough packaging.

however, if you are aware of the drawbacks and design around them, it's not much of an issue.
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      06-11-2012, 02:44 PM   #20
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I heard Porsche is going to rename the Boxter/Cayman, 901 coupe/901 convertible. The iconic 911 turbo will be known as 912 and the 911 gts 3 will be renamed 913.
so you ll have the 911,912,913 and the cayenne will the X912,X913 and a smaller suv will be introduced and will be called the X911.

Jk i dont think the guys at Porsche are that foolish, they probably spend most of their time on more important things.
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      06-14-2012, 03:10 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
I heard Porsche is going to rename the Boxter/Cayman, 901 coupe/901 convertible. The iconic 911 turbo will be known as 912 and the 911 gts 3 will be renamed 913.
so you ll have the 911,912,913 and the cayenne will the X912,X913 and a smaller suv will be introduced and will be called the X911.

Jk i dont think the guys at Porsche are that foolish, they probably spend most of their time on more important things.
I see what you did there.... I like it!
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      06-14-2012, 07:55 PM   #22
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Ironically, the OP's name is seanwillnotreturn. Yet, he keeps returning, time and time again.

If only...
__________________
Mine: 2006 Z4 Roadster | Interlagos Blue Metallic | Black Extended Nappa Leather | Carbon Leather Trim | Premium | Navigation | Heated Seats | iPod Adapter | Purchased 7/19/12
Hers: 2011 335is Coupe | Le Mans Blue Metallic | Black Dakota Leather | Dark Glacier Aluminum | 6MT | Premium | Convenience | Heated Seats | Navigation | Harmon Kardon | iPod/USB | European Delivery 5/12/11

Appreciate 0
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