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      09-16-2012, 02:11 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m balla View Post
Just keep your V8 and pay it off if not already paid for... and if you want a new one get it while you can. There will be nice pre-owned examples to find. And supercharge it while your at it! I would still like to buy a pristine low mileage e46 m3.

Now, if you are an I6 fan and love the bottom more than the top this next car just may be the one for you. I can't think of a sweeter combo to get the manual transmission in: low end torque + manual + lsd. Hopefully it has a higher redline. Not sure how vtronic and the valvetrain play into that. I am sure lag will be mitigated as much as possible in this one. And think the engineering prowess BMW will be able to gloat because they were able to bring a 6 up to or exceed what the competition can do with an 8. It is kinda like the tiny yet massive engine and F1 going to 6 then 4 and the XJ220 with its savage turbo V6. BMW has already done the 8/10 quite well.

Or have both. I just hope the F8x has some lungs up top. No matter what and no matter how much this or that or comparison is done, the S65 is and always will be a mechanical masterpiece and symphony.

Like Scott said, not everyone is going to like the F8x. And I thought I read somewhere that the N54 was originally designed by the M division for use in future M cars or something like but they brought the 8 instead.

I do wish the F8x was a P derived design.
Just imagine driving the new M3 with 500nm or more torque with a manual transmission. Its like driving a supercharged e90 m3, but even lighter.
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      09-16-2012, 02:43 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by bmwmmm View Post
Only the S85 is a one off engine, the S65 was derived from the S85 so it is like any other M engine. The only special engine from BMW was the S85 as it was the only V10 ever put into a BMW while the are a lot of different BMW V8s around.
Thanks for correcting that. It would be cool if BMW did the reverse induction and intake on the 6 and put the turbos on top and showcased them that way.
Pop the hood and three turbos and an a2w staring at you.
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      09-16-2012, 02:44 PM   #245
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Just imagine driving the new M3 with 500nm or more torque with a manual transmission. Its like driving a supercharged e90 m3, but even lighter.
Back tires will be toast and need to have tire budget.
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      09-16-2012, 03:41 PM   #246
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The 330D has 560nm of torque
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      09-16-2012, 04:10 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Levi View Post
If the new M3 had an ultra light NA 3.8l I6 making 450PS and 450 Nm, with 8.5 RPM redline, then it would be a good substitute for the S65. But not an N55. Hey, its an M3, not some JDM turbo monster.
Levi, every post you make here is to whine about the loss of NA for BMW.
And you're not even driving one (Alfa says your info).


So go and hang out at the Alfa forum, or the Porsche forum (NA) ?
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      09-16-2012, 06:46 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmmm View Post
Only the S85 is a one off engine, the S65 was derived from the S85 so it is like any other M engine. The only special engine from BMW was the S85 as it was the only V10 ever put into a BMW while the are a lot of different BMW V8s around.
That doesnt change the fact the S65 is a high revving NA V8 with individual throttle bodies for an amazingly quick throttle response vs a twim turbo inline six.
it's like comparing the iphone 5 to an android, and your argument why the iphone is not great is because it was derived from the 4S.
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      09-16-2012, 08:59 PM   #249
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Looking at pictures, it looks like the new turbo engine has two air boxes. The one in the right of pictures gets air from front of car and feeds it to the air box on the turbo side. is this correct?
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      09-17-2012, 12:14 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
One thing for sure, the gearbox is the critical technology update. No doubt BMW will offer an MT version for the die hards, but the big performance version will only have two pedals.......oh the horror.
I would say that the MT version will be for north american market only, just like the F10 M5. There was a link posted somewhere in the M5 section on an interview with one of the F10 M5 lead engineers indicating that they would prefer to spend the money into a more useful area elsewhere than developing an MT version for F10 M5... or something to that effect...

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      09-17-2012, 04:43 AM   #251
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The main reason because the decision was made for this engine are to get more (as much as possible!) profit out of every sold M3/M4. This firstly ruled out the great and unique but expensive to produce S65 ... not its low mpg rates. Thats the real truth !!! The rest is great BMW marketing !

And also according to all infos from inside the M-GmbH the N55 derivate engine was only chosen because off cost reasons and also its an fact that there exists also an better (turbo)alternative - prefered from most M-GmbH members and technicans ... an V6 BiTurbo derivate from the S63Tü - but the BMW AG ordered the M-GmbH to go with the cheaper and not with the better engine to increase the cars profitability further. Its quoted that the real difference between both turbo engines was below 1.000 Euro per unit. But BMW (the AG) decided that its better to increase the debit over this Euros and the cheaper but (slightly?) inferior engine is enough to make the new F8x better than its predecessors. But in my opinion this is the wrong decision because the M-Spirt is worth more than € 1.000 per car ... just for the future of the brand.

Its hard to know that the M3/M4 would have been an even better car as it will be ... only if the M-Spirit fraction (M-GmbH) had won over the cost reduction and profit maximization fraction (BMW AG) !!!

Greets Uli_HH

Last edited by Uli_HH; 09-17-2012 at 04:49 AM.
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      09-17-2012, 08:55 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
The main reason because the decision was made for this engine are to get more (as much as possible!) profit out of every sold M3/M4. This firstly ruled out the great and unique but expensive to produce S65 ... not its low mpg rates. Thats the real truth !!! The rest is great BMW marketing !

And also according to all infos from inside the M-GmbH the N55 derivate engine was only chosen because off cost reasons and also its an fact that there exists also an better (turbo)alternative - prefered from most M-GmbH members and technicans ... an V6 BiTurbo derivate from the S63Tü - but the BMW AG ordered the M-GmbH to go with the cheaper and not with the better engine to increase the cars profitability further. Its quoted that the real difference between both turbo engines was below 1.000 Euro per unit. But BMW (the AG) decided that its better to increase the debit over this Euros and the cheaper but (slightly?) inferior engine is enough to make the new F8x better than its predecessors. But in my opinion this is the wrong decision because the M-Spirt is worth more than € 1.000 per car ... just for the future of the brand.

Its hard to know that the M3/M4 would have been an even better car as it will be ... only if the M-Spirit fraction (M-GmbH) had won over the cost reduction and profit maximization fraction (BMW AG) !!!

Greets Uli_HH
I couldn't agree more. Same reason why the F10 and F01 share the same platform,same reason why the F10 didnt use lightweight aluminium suspension components like on the E60. They re probably banking on the poseurs who dont give a $hit about these things.
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      09-17-2012, 10:11 AM   #253
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Well put. The fact that they will be using the M-badge on all "sport" models going forward is a corroborating indicator that BMW is in "M Monetization mode", ie harvesting the cash flow from actual M cars and the M badge/brand. The prior regime of "there will never be a FI M-Car, because that is cheating" is gone and BMW corporate is calling the shots management wise (who runs the M division) and product wise. No one bothers to think about what are the implications of the M division losing their autonomy...but every action BMW has taken thus far is totally consistent with Corporate calling the shots and emphasizing 1) market share expansion; 2) profit maximization per vehicle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
The main reason because the decision was made for this engine are to get more (as much as possible!) profit out of every sold M3/M4. This firstly ruled out the great and unique but expensive to produce S65 ... not its low mpg rates. Thats the real truth !!! The rest is great BMW marketing !

And also according to all infos from inside the M-GmbH the N55 derivate engine was only chosen because off cost reasons and also its an fact that there exists also an better (turbo)alternative - prefered from most M-GmbH members and technicans ... an V6 BiTurbo derivate from the S63Tü - but the BMW AG ordered the M-GmbH to go with the cheaper and not with the better engine to increase the cars profitability further. Its quoted that the real difference between both turbo engines was below 1.000 Euro per unit. But BMW (the AG) decided that its better to increase the debit over this Euros and the cheaper but (slightly?) inferior engine is enough to make the new F8x better than its predecessors. But in my opinion this is the wrong decision because the M-Spirt is worth more than € 1.000 per car ... just for the future of the brand.

Its hard to know that the M3/M4 would have been an even better car as it will be ... only if the M-Spirit fraction (M-GmbH) had won over the cost reduction and profit maximization fraction (BMW AG) !!!

Greets Uli_HH
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      09-17-2012, 10:22 AM   #254
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Some good posts. The S65 is a masterpiece, from response to sound to exclusivity. However, the engine is only one part of an M-car and, for me, certainly lags behind what they do with the chassis and how this thing handles. I anticipate it will be great along with minimal lag and hopefully a 7500-7700rpm redline.

No doubt, I love high revving NA engines and can understand frustration that BMW have not at least bored out the I6 to 3.2 liters. Maybe they will argue there was no point, and maybe that is true, but it does seem like it could well be cost cutting to use the same displacement.

For those who live in europe the mpg boost is essential, for others in america it's welcome but not as necessary. I signed up looking for info on the F82 but I may well end up ordering another E92M. It's not that I doubt that the F82 will be great (and it will certainly be faster), it's just that other than Porsche the NA reign looks to be coming to an end.
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      09-17-2012, 11:33 AM   #255
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      09-17-2012, 12:02 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Lassiter View Post
Some good posts. The S65 is a masterpiece, from response to sound to exclusivity. However, the engine is only one part of an M-car and, for me, certainly lags behind what they do with the chassis and how this thing handles. I anticipate it will be great along with minimal lag and hopefully a 7500-7700rpm redline.

No doubt, I love high revving NA engines and can understand frustration that BMW have not at least bored out the I6 to 3.2 liters. Maybe they will argue there was no point, and maybe that is true, but it does seem like it could well be cost cutting to use the same displacement.

For those who live in europe the mpg boost is essential, for others in america it's welcome but not as necessary. I signed up looking for info on the F82 but I may well end up ordering another E92M. It's not that I doubt that the F82 will be great (and it will certainly be faster), it's just that other than Porsche the NA reign looks to be coming to an end.

In town, the mpg of the S65 and a tuned 450 hp N55/54 are almost the same.
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      09-17-2012, 02:13 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
In town, the mpg of the S65 and a tuned 450 hp N55/54 are almost the same.
That may well be but this is a new version of the engine, not an aftermarket tune of the old one. MPG has risen exponentially over the last few years. A family member in Europe bought a 535d in 06/07 which delivered 270bhp and 35 euro mpg combined. The 3 liter block in the heavier F10 returns 310bhp and 50mpg combined.

Mercedes new 5.5 liter V8 returns more than 30mpg in the SLK. True, all of these figures will drop when driven hard but a TTI6 doesn't need to be driven above at least 3k at all times like our S65s.

Again, I'm a huge S65 lover but I don't think it can be denied the new one is almost certain to be far more efficient.
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      09-17-2012, 02:45 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Carl Lassiter View Post
That may well be but this is a new version of the engine, not an aftermarket tune of the old one. MPG has risen exponentially over the last few years. A family member in Europe bought a 535d in 06/07 which delivered 270bhp and 35 euro mpg combined. The 3 liter block in the heavier F10 returns 310bhp and 50mpg combined.

Mercedes new 5.5 liter V8 returns more than 30mpg in the SLK. True, all of these figures will drop when driven hard but a TTI6 doesn't need to be driven above at least 3k at all times like our S65s.

Again, I'm a huge S65 lover but I don't think it can be denied the new one is almost certain to be far more efficient.

And it is NA and makes +500 Nm and is as light as N54.
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      09-17-2012, 02:54 PM   #259
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Mercedes new 5.5 liter V8 returns more than 30mpg in the SLK.
Not really.
The MBZ website gives this car 19/28. That's probably includes an imaginary mpg savings from their ECO Auto/start gizmo.
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      09-17-2012, 02:57 PM   #260
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Not really.
The MBZ website gives this car 19/28. That's probably includes an imaginary mpg savings from their ECO Auto/start gizmo.
I referenced Euro gallons which are larger than a US gallon. The point stands, newer cars are making more power yet delivering improved economy.
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      09-17-2012, 03:45 PM   #261
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It's a Mr. Fusion:

Man, I hate Mr. Fusion! It was the demise of the DeLorean when the engineers gave up on the long and storied history of the Flux Capacitor and sold out with Mr. Fusion.

I am FOR SURE keeping my Flux Capacitor DeLorean for a long, long time.
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      09-17-2012, 06:43 PM   #262
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Refrain from what if's until the final product is delivered, NA or turbocharged, to me it doesn't really matter as long as it delivers an all overall great driving experience from an M car. Which means to me, that an M car can be driven on a daily basis comfortably then also taken to the track as the owner chose on the weekends.
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      09-17-2012, 07:43 PM   #263
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my 1er n55 is the father of the new m3er wild child?
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      09-17-2012, 07:53 PM   #264
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I can understand profits but could have the thought the fan base wanted the I6 and the power bump too? And least a manual for the us..

I do wish they kept the S65 but at least the x55 block isn't that bad: http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...1&d=1303136356

It's not like the c63 or exclusive rs5 are cheap or light years beyond M. And if the f8x isn't popular BMW will be forced to bring the s65enstein back to life.
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