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      09-22-2012, 10:30 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
Well,how about a twin turbo V8? I doubt Ferrari,Lamborghini will replace their high revvin NA V8,V10,V12 with supercharged or turbocharged engines.
I am a little surprised they didn't go that route.

Turbocharging successfully demands a particular set up, so perhaps the S65 just wasn't suited. For sure the N55 is designed for TC.
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      09-24-2012, 12:52 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
I am a little surprised they didn't go that route.

Turbocharging successfully demands a particular set up, so perhaps the S65 just wasn't suited. For sure the N55 is designed for TC.
Seriously?

THE only reason for the new engine choice and for there never having been one shred of a possibility of a super or turbo charged S65 is MONEY. The common components of the N55 with the base model will drive the parts cost down tremendously. A super or turbo charged S65 would have been substantially more expensive not less.
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      09-24-2012, 09:09 PM   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullbussa View Post
Now if BMW could make a N/A V8 that is on par with GM's pushrods or Ford's 5.0 liter, then I would all be in support of that approach. But the S65 isn't up to par with those engines, so we need to stop pretending.
One word: Weight.

The day a Mustang or Camaro handles like an M3, I'll start to listen.
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      09-25-2012, 01:44 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by dhoggm3 View Post
One word: Weight.

The day a Mustang or Camaro handles like an M3, I'll start to listen.
Hmmm, you might argue there are some non measured subtleties that make the M3 a "better" handler than the 2011 Mustang GT. However, sticking to the numbers only, the GT is every bit as fast at both the strip and the track as the M3. It does so in great part by weighing the same and having the same power, thus having the same power to weight ratio.

Time to start listening, especially given its base price is 50% of the M3.

From a pure bang for the buck, there is no denying that the Mustang is the clear winner.

One test reference here from MotorTrend
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      09-25-2012, 11:04 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
From a pure bang for the buck, there is no denying that the Mustang is the clear winner.
Very true. Thing is, as long as money is not too much of an issue (and if it is, people should be putting it elsewhere than a 75k car) the overall package of an M-car cannot be beat.
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      09-25-2012, 11:32 AM   #336
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[quote=Red Bread;12701779]Having owned a Z3 M Coupe, the total production was around 6,200. I've heard that Z4 M Coupe numbers were around 5,600 total. [quote]

My bad. I only had the z4 numbers through 2009, for NA.
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      09-25-2012, 12:04 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
What are you talking about?

The 1M was a limited production run, and BMW has extended the run because of the (non-expected) higher demand, and also the appraise for the car.
Production was stopped because the new 1-series model hit the market.
Get your facts straight please.
My facts are straight. Production of the 1 series coupe is uninterupted, so it would be no problem for BMW AG to keep squeezing them out at Leipzig. Perhaps BMW AG instead thought that market demand would be satisfied with the 135is, introduced about the same time the M was withdrawn. After all, there is only 15 horsepowers and a couple thousand USD between the two.

I don't see where mid four-digit sales that never crosssed 100 a month adds up to to a worldwide sales leader.

And I STILL wish I had one of each. And a Z4 M coupe.
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      09-25-2012, 12:07 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Skullbussa View Post
Now if BMW could make a N/A V8 that is on par with GM's pushrods or Ford's 5.0 liter, then I would all be in support of that approach. But the S65 isn't up to par with those engines, so we need to stop pretending.
Anyone who knows engines knows that when it comes to horsepower and torque, the S65 given the same displacement as either the ford 5.0 or GM LS engines would be far ahead. The BMW S65 has a big technology advantage when it comes to the ECM, the cam phasing, and knock control systems.

Granted the Ford 5.0 and the GM LS engines are amazing for what they are and at the price point that they are available at, but when it comes to numbers, a if the ford Coyote/Road Runner or GM LS engines were only 4.0 litres, there would be no comparison at all. You need to compare apples to apples my friend! 25% or more displacement to make the same power don't impress me much.

With all the above being said, I had a 2012 Ford Mustang 5.0 for a rental car last summer, and I was impressed by the engine!

P.S.: I don't remember the GM LS engines or the ford modular engines ever winning any of the world engine of the year awards. The S65 has won it's displacement category every year since introduction!
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      09-25-2012, 12:11 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Oh, so the Camry is even better than the M3? More people buy Cayennes than 911's, so what your point?
The Cayennes are cheaper than the 911s, which might have something to do with it? And since the M 1-series is cheaper than the M3, that should, following the same logic, make it sell better than the M3, if there was big demand for it, wouldn't it?

And the Camry is cheaper than all these cars, so I'm having trouble following you -- can you help a brother out here? I want to understand the point, but I feel like I'm missing something.
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      09-25-2012, 12:19 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Am I reading this right? Just because BMW didn't sell a gazillion 1M's that is proof that people preferred the M3 V8 to a 1M Turbo I6?
I'm sorry, but I didn't intend to say what people prefer. All I said was that worldwide DEMAND for 1 series M coupes (not the same as a 1M) was not that high. A gazillion would have been an impressive sell-through indeed.

Please don't take my comments as arguing what people prefer. I have no idea what people prefer. For example, I prefer to have an M3 E46, M3 E92, and an M E82 all at the same time, but I choose not to.

What do you prefer, an M E82 or a F30 diesel? It looks like you're in the market for the latter. If you don't want a used car, the E82 is still available in the 135is, which is only 15 horsepowers less than the M E82 and the suspension could be upgraded for a reasonable cost.

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      09-25-2012, 02:27 PM   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBasham View Post
What do you prefer, an M E82 or a F30 diesel? It looks like you're in the market for the latter. If you don't want a used car, the E82 is still available in the 135is, which is only 15 horsepowers less than the M E82 and the suspension could be upgraded for a reasonable cost.
The 135is uses a completely different suspension, differential and brakes than the 1M, which uses the M3's parts for each of those, along with a wider track and body work.

This argument is similar to a JB4 335i being similar in power to an M3. It's still not much like an M3, even if it has similar power.

The 1M was not designed to be a high volume seller, unlike the M3, which provides more comfort, more body styles, more colors, more transmission choices, more just about everything else.
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      09-25-2012, 06:52 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
THE only reason for the new engine choice and for there never having been one shred of a possibility of a super or turbo charged S65 is MONEY. The common components of the N55 with the base model will drive the parts cost down tremendously. A super or turbo charged S65 would have been substantially more expensive not less.
I have a hard time buying into your money emphasis.
The increase in horsepower between the current V8 and the new N55 (414 to 440) is a mere 26 HP. Dinan, as an example, gives you more than that (without turbo's) on an S65 + a substantial torque increase. A Dinan S65 cost 25k but If BMW put a Dinan like engine into assembly line production, I bet it would add, max, 5k to the cost of the car. I'm not sure, but ,to me, the re-worked N55 is going to add that and maybe more.
It just seems that some inexpensive off-the-shelf tweaks done by BMW (routinely done by tuners) to the S65 could have achieved the same power/torque performance as its evident replacement and at less cost.
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      09-26-2012, 07:23 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Seriously?

THE only reason for the new engine choice and for there never having been one shred of a possibility of a super or turbo charged S65 is MONEY. The common components of the N55 with the base model will drive the parts cost down tremendously. A super or turbo charged S65 would have been substantially more expensive not less.
Well I don't work high up in the BMW marketing /Engineering team for future projects, so couldn't give you the insiders answer.

I take it neither do you?

.....so as we are speculating, yes a forced induction S65 would be an expensive option. As the expense of the car has a direct relationship to numbers sold, I'm sure even BMW have to work within certain budgetary frameworks.

Adding a supercharger is never going to happen.... it is a wasteful technology, and counters the direction they need to go in, so we will drop that one.

Now, lets consider the turbo'd S65 route.....

If it were a racing car, no issues. But as it is a road car and needs to behave mild mannered at low revs too, this isn't really an option for a high revving V8

Why? the wider the rev range, the more problem you have matching turbo charger sizes. Also V8's aren't easy to TC by design as you have two seperate cylinder banks. It would be a nightmare to plump a triple turbo system onto an S65 and fit that combo into and engine bay. Forget it.
Yes Mercedes are using a twin turbo (one turbo per bank) V8 in the AMG cars, but they are large 5.5liter engines and reletively low revving. Adding two turbo's per bank would just be heavy and expensive.

So perhaps the option was to have:

a.) A 'supposedly' de-tuned but turbo charged S65 powered M3 that cost loads. *detuned in the fact that the rev limit would be significantly lowered

b.) An N55 derived turbo 6 that was more economical to run, and to produce.

Option A would be slated by the true S65 fans as being Turbo charged for very little extra....as well as bitching about the new price tag. It would also not gain any favour by people expecting a more economical car within the typical M3 pricing range.

Option B get applauded by many as being a more enviromentally conscious, modern M3 with a price tag in line with the rest of the 3 range. The only people not liking this option are the NA V8 fans.

No contest in my mind, as both options alienate the S65 guy, and only option B gets new customers lined up with their money in hand.

And before anyone says 'who cares about economy in an M3?' there are plenty of people that do.
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      09-26-2012, 07:28 AM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBasham View Post
I'm sorry, but I didn't intend to say what people prefer. All I said was that worldwide DEMAND for 1 series M coupes (not the same as a 1M) was not that high. A gazillion would have been an impressive sell-through indeed.

Please don't take my comments as arguing what people prefer. I have no idea what people prefer. For example, I prefer to have an M3 E46, M3 E92, and an M E82 all at the same time, but I choose not to.

What do you prefer, an M E82 or a F30 diesel? It looks like you're in the market for the latter. If you don't want a used car, the E82 is still available in the 135is, which is only 15 horsepowers less than the M E82 and the suspension could be upgraded for a reasonable cost.
No problem, the car buying public are a fickle lot......but I can see why an M3 buyer ISN'T going to buy a 1M, same reason why some M5 buyers would never buy an M3. Doesn't mean one is better than the other......cars need to suit a purpose and a 'little' 1M isn't for everyone. It would be too small and impractical for me, no matter how good a drive it is.
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      09-26-2012, 09:45 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by fuddman View Post
I have a hard time buying into your money emphasis.
The increase in horsepower between the current V8 and the new N55 (414 to 440) is a mere 26 HP. Dinan, as an example, gives you more than that (without turbo's) on an S65 + a substantial torque increase. A Dinan S65 cost 25k but If BMW put a Dinan like engine into assembly line production, I bet it would add, max, 5k to the cost of the car. I'm not sure, but ,to me, the re-worked N55 is going to add that and maybe more.
It just seems that some inexpensive off-the-shelf tweaks done by BMW (routinely done by tuners) to the S65 could have achieved the same power/torque performance as its evident replacement and at less cost.
First off, where does this 26 hp increase to 440 N55 number come from? Do you know something no one else does about the F80/2?

I don't have time to look up the Dinan S65, but I doubt it's making making more than 400lb/ft from about 1500 rpm as the new engine most likely will or achieving more than 25 highway.

I love the V8, but i refuse to discount the heavily modified 3 liter turbo until independent road testers and myself have had a chance to drive one. The 4.4TT in the M5 is towering.
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      09-26-2012, 10:16 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Seriously?

THE only reason for the new engine choice and for there never having been one shred of a possibility of a super or turbo charged S65 is MONEY. The common components of the N55 with the base model will drive the parts cost down tremendously. A super or turbo charged S65 would have been substantially more expensive not less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuddman View Post
I have a hard time buying into your money emphasis.
First post in this forum . . . hello everyone.

I'd have to agree, in part, with Swamp on this one. I'd say there are two reasons BMW chose to use a modified N55 over a V8: cost and fuel efficiency -- at the target power level.

I do also wonder how the weight of the S65 with all accessories will compare to the "S55". . .
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      09-26-2012, 05:26 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Long term Ferrari are also going to go FI (most likely turbo) for some production sports cars. However, they are waiting until they have the engineering and technology to do something very novel and to be much less (if at all) affected by the typical turbo disadvantages of lower redlines and turbo lag. If the next M3 has an electric compressor they may beat Ferrari to the punch on that regard. That being said Ferrari have been able to substantially increase power, redline and fuel efficiency while maintaining their V8s and V12s. The major improvements are from direct injection. That would have been the only way to go if BMW M were to keep the V8 for the M3. It would have been a great solution but it simply did not offer them enough profit. I guess we should not be surprised the Ferrari place emotion and character of their engine above cost but BMW do the opposite. BMW is a changin'...

All of this inane discussion of the cylinder count or configuration (I vs. V) is entirely irrelevant. The I6 has its BMW and BMW M heritage but every generation of M engines have also enjoyed a higher redline and more specific output (power per liter) as well as improved shapes of the power and torque curves.

Again the things of consequence that actually matter are these same things, redline, turbo lag, power delivery characteristics.
Are you speculating about Ferrari goin the FI route?
Btw Audi already has a working electric turbo on one of their new diesel engines. Like with direct injection, BMW wont be the first to introduce an electric turbo...
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      09-26-2012, 07:04 PM   #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
Are you speculating about Ferrari goin the FI route?
Btw Audi already has a working electric turbo on one of their new diesel engines. Like with direct injection, BMW wont be the first to introduce an electric turbo...
Interesting, thanks for sharing!
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      09-27-2012, 01:26 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by dhoggm3 View Post
One word: Weight.

The day a Mustang or Camaro handles like an M3, I'll start to listen.
Have you driven a Boss 302 Leguna Seca? Listen.
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      09-27-2012, 05:35 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by fuddman View Post
I have a hard time buying into your money emphasis.
The increase in horsepower between the current V8 and the new N55 (414 to 440) is a mere 26 HP. Dinan, as an example, gives you more than that (without turbo's) on an S65 + a substantial torque increase. A Dinan S65 cost 25k but If BMW put a Dinan like engine into assembly line production, I bet it would add, max, 5k to the cost of the car. I'm not sure, but ,to me, the re-worked N55 is going to add that and maybe more.
It just seems that some inexpensive off-the-shelf tweaks done by BMW (routinely done by tuners) to the S65 could have achieved the same power/torque performance as its evident replacement and at less cost.
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Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Well I don't work high up in the BMW marketing /Engineering team for future projects, so couldn't give you the insiders answer.

I take it neither do you?
Search here on the forum or on the web for documents presented by BMW corporate to financial shareholders (the big ones). There is a huge emphasis on cost savings through the use of more common part across platforms. Really, take my word or look it up yourself. It is a well known and huge effort at BMW and you can see its results across other cars as well.

Secondly the best speculation I have heard on the new M3 engine is 450+ hp not 440. Yes that result can be achieved with tuning of the S65. However, the new turbo I6 will be much LESS expensive than the S65, not MORE expensive. BMW gets excited about pennies and dollars of savings. Something that would add $5k (even though you have radically overestimated) would be laughed right out of the room.

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      09-27-2012, 05:38 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
Are you speculating about Ferrari goin the FI route?
No, it's been discussed in many places online. In this article (nearly 3 years old!) Ferrari engine designer Jean-Jacques was quoted about the comming of FI.
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      09-27-2012, 09:16 PM   #352
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No, it's been discussed in many places online. In this article (nearly 3 years old!) Ferrari engine designer Jean-Jacques was quoted about the comming of FI.
Considering vs also going to go the FI like BMW is a big difference. Especially if Ferrari wants a high revvin,no turbo-lag engine. That's probably why it has been 3 years and still no twin turbo V8 from Ferrari.
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