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      09-27-2012, 09:41 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
Considering vs also going to go the FI like BMW is a big difference. Especially if Ferrari wants a high revvin,no turbo-lag engine. That's probably why it has been 3 years and still no twin turbo V8 from Ferrari.
I did not understand the first sentence above at all....

There are still relatively low cost tweaks they have been able to do to provide more power, more specific power (power per displacement) and better fuel efficiency, all the while while also raising redlines. One big step was direct injection. Also Ferrari care much more about heritage, soul, feel and sound, etc. than BMW (even than BMW M). Lastly, they care much less about penalties for not meeting CAFE standards, they are mostly inconsequential to Ferrari and they are probably passed along 100% to the consumer. They do still want to be greener just because it is a good image and "the right thing to do". Thus we will see some cool FI tech from Ferrari relatively soon, perhaps including a road version of the KERS system used in their race cars.
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      09-27-2012, 11:29 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Seriously?

THE only reason for the new engine choice and for there never having been one shred of a possibility of a super or turbo charged S65 is MONEY. The common components of the N55 with the base model will drive the parts cost down tremendously. A super or turbo charged S65 would have been substantially more expensive not less.
swamp, it is important to keep in mind that BMW already has a perfectly suitable turbocharged V8 sitting in the parts bin - the N63tu. Like the N54 used in the 1M, calling this engine into duty for the next M3/M4 would have cost them next to nothing as far as powertrain development is concerned. The engine, in fact, makes ~450hp which is just about what we expect from the "S55".

It is not difficult to deduce, then, contrary to your claim, money is clearly not the primary motivator for M engine choices - at least not for the M3/M4 (it may very well have been for the 1M - in fact I'd guess that it was).
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      09-28-2012, 02:44 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
swamp, it is important to keep in mind that BMW already has a perfectly suitable turbocharged V8 sitting in the parts bin - the N63tu. Like the N54 used in the 1M, calling this engine into duty for the next M3/M4 would have cost them next to nothing as far as powertrain development is concerned. The engine, in fact, makes ~450hp which is just about what we expect from the "S55".

It is not difficult to deduce, then, contrary to your claim, money is clearly not the primary motivator for M engine choices - at least not for the M3/M4 (it may very well have been for the 1M - in fact I'd guess that it was).
The existence of the N63tu in no way proves or even makes a point counter to my claim.

Sorry, at BMW these days money is king. I know it is hard to admit, especially for our precious M division, but they are getting greedier and greedier over time. Perhaps too big for their own good. I certainly am not "preaching" against capitalism, but it does have its consequences.

What part of this very good prior post did you miss,

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Originally Posted by Skullbussa View Post
The best engine for the next M3 is the one that makes the most power, reliably, with the best torque curve, all the while doing it as efficiently as possible (mpg).
I should just add to this quote that these must be accomplished as well as producing the engine AT THE LEAST COST POSSIBLE.

An I6 will be so much less expensive than any kind of modified N63. It will be less expensive at the same volume and much less expensive at the very high volume given the plethora of vehicles it will be used in. Volume is the key to controlling cost, materials, suppliers, automation, etc. Certainly part of the reason for the very existence of the N63 is prestige - to have a "big" and "powerful" V8 for the 5ers and 7ers that sport the engine. Last but not least although development costs are important and large, they pale in comparison to production costs.

OK the images are really the last points:
  1. "We are driven by our goal to increase profitability"
  2. R&D spending: Recovering but way down as a percentage. Probably a coincidence that this spending peaked right around the time of the development of the S65 and S85...
  3. Standardize architectures (read dump a slightly modded regular 3er engine in the M3 and M4)
  4. Material cost offensive: Drive down costs (to generate more profit)
* Source - March 2012 BMW Investor Presentation

It can not be made much more clear than this.
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      09-28-2012, 03:30 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
The existence of the N63tu in no way proves or even makes a point counter to my claim.
Well no of course not, nor did I assert that it did. My point - in case it wasn't abundantly clear - is that the development of the "S55" despite the existence of the N63Tu that offers the same or very similar output as the former counters your claim about money/cost. As a general rule the fewer types of engines you build, the lower your costs will be (less parts = great economies of scale).

Quote:
What part of this very good prior post did you miss,
swamp, I didn't read that post nor any other that came after yours. I was responding to your post and your words only - no one else's.

Quote:
An I6 will be so much less expensive than any kind of modified N63.
I don't think you understand. There is no need whatsoever to modify the N63tu that I spoke of in my post (not an N63, incidentally, as you've stated). It could be dropped into an M3/M4 as is, just as the N54 was for the 1M (aside from a different flywheel in that case, IIRC).

From an R&D perspective, I am struggling to come up with a convincing argument that could demonstrate how taking an N55 and reworking the entire induction system, valvetrain, and heads to create an "S55" will somehow save money vs. just using the N63tu V8 that's already been developed for the 6 and 7 series range of products.

I don't really want to get into a long winded debate or pissing match of any kind, but in my mind the truth in all this is pretty darn clear - BMW M is developing the "S55" not because it is the cheapest solution, but because it meets their needs best which include not just costs, and not even just efficiency or performance either, but also some degree of exclusivity and some degree of heritage too, and probably other intangibles that the marketing minds at BMW have ways of quantifying with respect to monetization. So then, I think even skullbusa has come up a bit short as far as all of the factors at play when it comes to making the business case.

Going back to your original post, if an S65 with FI and/or DI would have met those needs best, then that is exactly what we'd have, even if it weren't necessarily the lowest cost to develop. And going back to my post, even if the N63tu is the least costly, if it doesn't meet all the needs of the product (read: exclusivity) then it is not going to make the cut. So what we end up with is something in the middle - not the cheapest engine to build, but no doubt cheaper than taking the current M3 engine and furthering its development. When you are trying to maintain your position in the marketplace as the enthusiast's #1 performance luxury sedan/coupe on the market, you have more to consider than just the number crunching from the bean counters and the engineers. You have to build the car that the ever-changing marketplace wants.
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      09-28-2012, 03:52 AM   #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Certainly part of the reason for the very existence of the N63 is prestige - to have a "big" and "powerful" V8 for the 5ers and 7ers that sport the engine. Last but not least although development costs are important and large, they pale in comparison to production costs.
Since I neglected to address this in my post above -

I will certainly agree that the V8 models are there partly for prestige, but lets not forget that they are also there because the competition offers similar vehicles at a given performance level so you have to do what you need to to keep up.

But just as important here, lets not ignore the fact that a degree exclusivity for the M products effects their engineering just as prestige does for the higher end luxury products.

Regarding production cost, we will soon see if you are correct, perhaps. If the new M I6 is going to save a heap of money on that front well then why shouldn't it propagate throughout the lineup, replacing the N63tu? Prestige? Let's look at the diesel engines for a moment. Notice that (after it went on hiatus for a time) BMW has effectively replaced the V8 diesel formerly in the 7 series with the new N57S tri-turbo I6 (incidentally, also an M-developed motor). Mercedes and Audi still use a V8 in this class. Who needs prestige when you can match the competitors' performance with a pumped of version of the same engine you use in the lowly 330i (with, you guessed it, a different induction system, of course)?
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      09-28-2012, 12:50 PM   #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
Interesting pics! So we know it's a in-line six. Not a V6 as a 3/4's version of the ttv8 M5 engine like some claimed. We can see a large air to water intercooler. Also note how we have two "cold lines" coming out of the a2w intercooler - but only one going in! That must mean TWO turbos. Not three. Unless the other air box on the passenger side is for the electric on demand turbo? ???

Also interesting is the two air filter boxes. This car is a RHD(!) werkstestwagen, just look at the windshield wipers. The shock towers have that spider web look of the F10 M5 EDC shock towers have.

I have "heard" BMW have gone with a hybrid marriage of the N54 block(& internals) and used the N55 double vanous head of the N55 - and then worked some M magic on that combo. Perhaps these rumors are true. ? S55 anyone?


I also hear the DCT is all new too for the M3/M4 along with some other drivetrain surprises.
I hope it's called the S55Tu Is there any word yet on the displacement of the inline block?
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      09-28-2012, 01:02 PM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Since I neglected to address this in my post above -

I will certainly agree that the V8 models are there partly for prestige, but lets not forget that they are also there because the competition offers similar vehicles at a given performance level so you have to do what you need to to keep up.

But just as important here, lets not ignore the fact that a degree exclusivity for the M products effects their engineering just as prestige does for the higher end luxury products.

Regarding production cost, we will soon see if you are correct, perhaps. If the new M I6 is going to save a heap of money on that front well then why shouldn't it propagate throughout the lineup, replacing the N63tu? Prestige? Let's look at the diesel engines for a moment. Notice that (after it went on hiatus for a time) BMW has effectively replaced the V8 diesel formerly in the 7 series with the new N57S tri-turbo I6 (incidentally, also an M-developed motor). Mercedes and Audi still use a V8 in this class. Who needs prestige when you can match the competitors' performance with a pumped of version of the same engine you use in the lowly 330i (with, you guessed it, a different induction system, of course)?
Someone should really suggest to them to go the direct of dual/hybrid inject ala FT86/FRS/etc. Carbon caking seems to be a big issue!
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      09-28-2012, 03:25 PM   #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
From an R&D perspective, I am struggling to come up with a convincing argument that could demonstrate how taking an N55 and reworking the entire induction system, valvetrain, and heads to create an "S55" will somehow save money vs. just using the N63tu V8 that's already been developed for the 6 and 7 series range of products.

I don't really want to get into a long winded debate or pissing match of any kind, but in my mind the truth in all this is pretty darn clear - BMW M is developing the "S55" not because it is the cheapest solution, but because it meets their needs best which include not just costs, and not even just efficiency or performance either, but also some degree of exclusivity and some degree of heritage too, and probably other intangibles that the marketing minds at BMW have ways of quantifying with respect to monetization.
Focusing on R&D instead of production is the exact reason why you would come to an incorrect conclusion about the TOTAL cost the engine choice. Certainly the development costs of a tweaked or even heavily modified N55 will be greater than the near zero cost of using an already developed engine. As I mentioned prior, the development costs pale in comparison to the production costs. This is true for most any high volume precision mechanical type of product. The savings for the new M engine will be primarily due to the shared components cost being driven down in a very significant fashion due to the huge volumes that those components will be manufactured in. Also the I6 will have less components then a similar FI V8. We are not talking a bit more production here but orders of magnitude more for the shared engine components spread among a great deal of cars including some of the base 3ers, BMWs highest volume vehicle.

Again the I6 was chosen as the LEAST expensive solution that met the power and efficiency requirements, period. If somehow BMW could have the production volume of their turbo V8 and base V8 higher than the I6 and somehow they could make it less expensive it absolutely would be the engine going into the next M3&M4.

No pissing match here just a discussion/debate!

Cheers.
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      09-28-2012, 04:09 PM   #361
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Swamp, if reviews are favorable will you be buying the new one when it drops or moving to a different marque?
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      09-28-2012, 06:00 PM   #362
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I love watching swamp2 and mkoesel go back and forth. They both up eachother repeatedly while keeping civil and adult like. It is so gosh darn entertaining. BTW mkoesel you should come to Justin J's huge drive from Ypsi to Royal Oak this Sunday.
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      09-28-2012, 06:12 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Carl L View Post
Swamp, if reviews are favorable will you be buying the new one when it drops or moving to a different marque?
That is a good question. I am very on the fence. It would be my fourth M3 (M4, whatever...). I think it might be time to spend some quality time with something else. I think the only potential for negative component of a review would be entirely centered on turbo lag, if it exists. If they nail that the car WILL be a winner.

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I love watching swamp2 and mkoesel go back and forth. They both up eachother repeatedly while keeping civil and adult like. It is so gosh darn entertaining.
I'd say we very often agree as well!
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      09-28-2012, 10:46 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Sorry, at BMW these days money is king. I know it is hard to admit, especially for our precious M division, but they are getting greedier and greedier over time. Perhaps too big for their own good. I certainly am not "preaching" against capitalism, but it does have its consequences.
Swamp, Name one company in the world that is not concerned with maximizing profits and minimizing costs? Seriously, BMW is a lot more concerned with the shareholders and profits than the handful of enthusiasts on this web fourm. Do we want BMW to be the next GM??? I don't!!!

Due to shareholder relations and the new electronic world we live in, all publicly traded corporations must show the shareholder that his investment is being handled properly so that it will deliver a return in the future, it is the key to survival.

The key to doing this successfully for M is finding a balance between responsible spending in R&D, and production & manufacturing, yet still delivering a product that delivers a driving experience that is fitting of an M Car. We will have to wait and see if BMW has been able to find this balance with the new F8X M3/M4....... I am not totally convinced yet, but I am crossing my fingers and hoping!
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      09-28-2012, 11:26 PM   #365
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The I6 is being used for a few apparent reasons.

1. It will have the lowest production costs. Less parts/materials than any V8

2. It will be the most efficient. Best gas mileage.

3. It makes no sense for BMW to invest even more heavily in any V8 architecture since it is going the way of the dinosaurs sooner rather than later. BMW knows the future of its premium level internal combustion engines is the I6 NOT the V8. By using a more advanced and developed version of their I6 in the M3/M4 they are investing in their future. It may cost a bit more in the short term assuming costs of just slapping the N63 in the car would be cheaper than the added I6 development costs + lower I6 production costs.

The M3/M4 will be the testbed for future I6 development and thus the increased upfront investment makes obvious sense due to its technology being passed along to their mainstream I6 engines of the next 10+ years. Knowing their future is in the I6, BMW has wisely invested in it's further development by taking advantage of the once in 7 year opportunity a new M3 allows. The development of a new halo car allows for more experimental and cutting edge tech to be pushed past the bean counters, which they are willing to allow due to the good will it will generate with the enthusiasts and the later trickle down tech to mainstream products.

It's comparable to the space program. All the massive $ expenditures by NASA over the years have amounted to little to no direct/immediate financial return. They did not result in the mining of unobtainium or bases on the Moon. However, they did result in numerous less exciting advancements across the spectrum. Tang anyone?

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      09-29-2012, 12:19 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Swamp, Name one company in the world that is not concerned with maximizing profits and minimizing costs? Seriously, BMW is a lot more concerned with the shareholders and profits than the handful of enthusiasts on this web fourm. Do we want BMW to be the next GM??? I don't!!!

Due to shareholder relations and the new electronic world we live in, all publicly traded corporations must show the shareholder that his investment is being handled properly so that it will deliver a return in the future, it is the key to survival.

The key to doing this successfully for M is finding a balance between responsible spending in R&D, and production & manufacturing, yet still delivering a product that delivers a driving experience that is fitting of an M Car. We will have to wait and see if BMW has been able to find this balance with the new F8X M3/M4....... I am not totally convinced yet, but I am crossing my fingers and hoping!
Certainly these are the rules by which companies are run. My point is not that this is bad and I have stated that. It can however, lead to compromises that are not necessarily in the best interest of the educated/enthusiast consumer. This point of view simply allows us to better understand the sources for BMW decisions. Folks like to talk (and romanticize) about tradition, engineering, motorsport, etc. when in fact things are the way they are based primarily on the bean counters. It's not sexy, but it is fact. As I also pointed out in prior posts things are different at other companies. Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari, GM and Ford are all continuing to to build supercharged and normally aspirated sports cars. Those cars are developing more specific power, more absolute power and doing so at increasing redlines. They are even delivering improved fuel efficiency. Although I agree one should not make too direct of a comparison between Ferrari and BMW, the S65 is practically straight out of Maranello and that is why it is such a special engine. It represents the pinnacle of BMWs prior M engine concepts of relatively low displacement, high specific and high absolute power primarily through high redline. The last key component of M engines has been fantastic throttle response. This great trend has now halted and will almost for sure be reversing to some degree. As already discussed BWM M is abandoning tradition. I certainly agree 100% that it is an unanswered question as to what extent a lower redline and potential turbo lag will detract from the engine and the car.

Some of these other companies are making decisions less by the bean counter and more from a marketing/tradition/engineering/enthusiasts perspective. Sure they will be cutting costs as well, but they just are not as obsessed with cost as BMW.

Also, even though I just said it a few posts ago, I'll say it again, I strongly believe that IF the cars has no noticeable turbo lag, it will be a hell of an engine, a hell of a car and almost for sure a class leader as it always had been.

One beauty of engineering, a distinctly human endeavor, is that there is often so many alternate solutions for a problem which is not specified so strictly and precisely to only allow a single correct solution. Let's hope BMW M has a beautiful and elegant solution to the problem stated (mandated) by the bean counters!
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      09-29-2012, 04:49 AM   #367
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swamp2 you keep bringing up Turbo lag.....can you define what this means to you?
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      09-29-2012, 09:50 AM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
The I6 is being used for a few apparent reasons.

1. It will have the lowest production costs. Less parts/materials than any V8

2. It will be the most efficient. Best gas mileage.

3. It makes no sense for BMW to invest even more heavily in any V8 architecture...

The M3/M4 will be the testbed for future I6 development and thus the increased upfront investment makes obvious sense due to its technology being passed along to their mainstream I6 engines of the next 10+ years. Knowing their future is in the I6, BMW has wisely invested in it's further development by taking advantage of the once in 7 year opportunity a new M3 allows. The development of a new halo car allows for more experimental and cutting edge tech to be pushed past the bean counters, which they are willing to allow due to the good will it will generate with the enthusiasts and the later trickle down tech to mainstream products.

Sounds very logical to me.
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      09-29-2012, 09:58 AM   #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Although I agree one should not make too direct of a comparison between Ferrari and BMW...
So don't :-)
And even if the engines might be somewhat comparable, their target audience isn't. Most M3 drivers use their car as daily driver. Most Ferrari drivers use their car as weekend/track fun toy.

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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
... The last key component of M engines has been fantastic throttle response...
True. But the engine is one of many ingredients that make an M car. So the next M3 still has a chance to feel like an M. We'll have to wait and see...
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      09-29-2012, 10:11 AM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
That is a good question. I am very on the fence. It would be my fourth M3 (M4, whatever...). I think it might be time to spend some quality time with something else. I think the only potential for negative component of a review would be entirely centered on turbo lag, if it exists. If they nail that the car WILL be a winner.
Thanks for the response. Sounds sensible to me. The lag on the M5's V8 is so much better than the 996TT I owned that, with another couple of years R&D and the M3 being their most important car, I really think/hope it will be a non-issue as will the redline if the manage to get it to 7500 or so.

Overall I'm sure the car will be a winner (and as I said many pages up the myriad chassis changes are most important to me), but i respect the fact that turbo lag can ruin an individual enthusiast's experience especially when used the immediacy of the S65. Here's hoping.....
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      09-29-2012, 12:26 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
So don't :-)
And even if the engines might be somewhat comparable, their target audience isn't. Most M3 drivers use their car as daily driver. Most Ferrari drivers use their car as weekend/track fun toy.
I only said one should not make "too direct of a comparison". Although the differences are abound there are many similarities and in many cases there is a valid reason to use BMW M and Ferrari in the same sentence or comparison.

You do know how many folks regularly track their BMWs? I'm sure you realize that there are many Ferraris that are daily drivers. Volume and cost and the biggest differences

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
But the engine is one of many ingredients that make an M car. So the next M3 still has a chance to feel like an M. We'll have to wait and see...
Yes, hopefully in additon to abandoning long held design principles BMW will stop it with the 50-50 weight distribution nonsense and move to a more effective rear weight bias, which will improve many aspects of handling
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      09-29-2012, 12:42 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
swamp2 you keep bringing up Turbo lag.....can you define what this means to you?
What it means to me? I think it means the same thing to most enthusiasts.

Turbo lag is the delay in engine and vehicle response due to low engine torque. The engine is only making a fraction of its potential torque/power at a given rpm and throttle because the turbo takes some time to gain rpm to one where there is significant flow and pressure being produced. Thus the engine response and vehicle response lags the throttle response. This happens whenever the throttle is moved significantly and rapidly from low rpm. It affects raw vehicle performance and requires certain techniques to avoid or drive around its effects on the track. Perhaps equally important it negatively affects the feel of the vehicle; its immediacy and direct connection to the driver via his right foot.

Traditionally, all M vehicles have enjoyed not only good throttle response but excellent throttle response.

Some (more non-enthusiasts) in my opinion, claim that recent BMW efforts with their twin turbo in the 335i have eliminated turbo lag. Although they have done a good job it is still very present.

Last edited by swamp2; 09-29-2012 at 06:29 PM.
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      09-29-2012, 01:43 PM   #373
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I disagree, to most enthusiasts Lag is the revs at which the Turbo is capable of producing boost. Technically known as Boost threshold.

Lag technically is the delay between throttle application and power delivery when the engine is in the boost threshold region.

The fact that the new M3 has at least 2 turbo's sequentially set up, and a very short plumbing through an water/air intercooler, to me means that it will be significantly better than a 335i in both boost threshold and Lag terms.

The major plus with a Turbo is you have a massive torque band.

When you undertand the real term of LAG, an NA engine has LAG ALL THE WAY TO REDLINE, at it never has that boosted torque increase.

Unfortunately you always seem to get NA or Turbo enthusiasts. It is usually one or the other as a preference.
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      09-29-2012, 06:29 PM   #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
I disagree, to most enthusiasts Lag is the revs at which the Turbo is capable of producing boost. Technically known as Boost threshold.
No backwards, first lag is the phenomena, not the revs (as you explicity state) and it is not the rev range when "boost" is produced but the phenomena when "boost" is not being produced but being requested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Lag technically is the delay between throttle application and power delivery when the engine is in the boost threshold region.
That's closer to what I said and mostly correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
The fact that the new M3 has at least 2 turbo's sequentially set up, and a very short plumbing through an water/air intercooler, to me means that it will be significantly better than a 335i in both boost threshold and Lag terms.
No one knows the exact quantity, arrangement, size nor much else about the new cars FI system. The biggest variable will be the presence or absence of some sort of electric turbo or other lag reducing technique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
The major plus with a Turbo is you have a massive torque band.
Not quite. The S65 has one of the broadest and flattest torque bands around. With a good turbo you get more torque at low rpms, good from a dig or for pulling stumps but not what makes a car the most exciting nor the most potent at the track. Turbos then generally can not keep up their performance to a very high redline thus their band width suffers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
When you undertand the real term of LAG, an NA engine has LAG ALL THE WAY TO REDLINE, at it never has that boosted torque increase.
That's nonsense. Anyone who says that a very sporty engine like the S65 suffers from lag is utterly confused about lag.

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Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Unfortunately you always seem to get NA or Turbo enthusiasts. It is usually one or the other as a preference.
Agreed.
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