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      10-02-2012, 04:27 PM   #419
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Whether it is lag or rpms below a boost threshold the result is the same - a delay in obtaining full power from the time it is requested by throttle application.
I see your still not getting it.....cc for cc the turbo gives the same response before boost.....when boost kicks in it is bye-bye NA version. You aren't losing a damn thing. Yes it FEELS like you are as the difference when on boost is like night and day,and once you feel the night you don't want the Day.

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For you to continue to think that folks who enjoy NA engines just "don't get" turbo's is both arrogant and narrow minded. There are advantages and disadvantages of each.
Lol that is rich, you spout a whole bunch of missinformed info on Turbo engines almost as if you are the authority on the differences, and are calling me narrow minded. Funny In my world having pre-concieved ideas on a technology is narrow minded and ignorant.

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But the version with the higher power motor is sold as a premium/performance version with a much higher price, correct?
Nope, it is obviously a more expensive version, next model up, kind of like the 335i is the next version up from 328i. It is no M car difference. What's your point?

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I've always said more torque and more power is always better, however, putting up with the negative aspects of lag is also never a good thing. In this particular case one could say that the NA motor is always experiencing lag, however, that does not account for the actual feel and responsiveness of the two cars. You won't actually feel any lag in the NA car but you clearly do in the turbo version. The flip side argument remains as well. If you have a fixed torque and fixed power would you choose the engine with or without lag?
I actually like the 'lag' because you know the big hit is coming, gives an extra dimension to get to grips with. An NA to me feels boring, like driving an AT on a track. Give me an MT big single Turbo any day. And to me that is much more M3 spirit than seemless boredom from idle to redline. Bring on F80, pity they are going to appease the Lag haters by adding 3 turbos.....but then some tuning company will ditch those and stick a decent 600bhp single on it, now that will be an M3 with balls.....happy days.
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      10-02-2012, 05:02 PM   #420
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Seriously?! Is there any successful car company that doesn't use this approach? Would an M3 with a smog friendly BRM H16 be cool? Of course it would. Would a 3.0L V8 that revved to 11k rpm be cool? Yep, that too.

But those things don't make financial sense. Does a 730 hp V12 make financial sense in a $330k F12? Yep, some. Does an LS7 make financial sense in a Z06? Enough. Does leaving mechanical LSD's out of all non M cars make financial sense? Probably. Does saddling every car with subsidized RFT's and saving the cost of a spare, a lug wrench and a jack make financial sense? Yep.

I'm an accountant and I can't think of a single car that isn't burdened by the reality of cost savings. Even the ne plus ultra of stupid cars, the Veyron, would be massively cooler if it didn't weigh as much a Suburban, but making it lighter would have made it even more expensive.

Give the M3 a straight six, the engine it's had more often than any other configuration.
No real disagreement with this. It is simply that BMW M have literally preached the virtues of a high revving, naturally aspirated, instantaneous throttle response, Motorsport inspired engine over a very long time period. With previous engines and reaching a peak with the current S65 design they have adhered to this philosophy. Neither the S85 from the M5 nor the derived S65 from the M3 were the inexpensive approach. At the volumes involved they were actually very far from the "accountants choice". These decisions were possible at BMW M at that time but are simply not possible today.

Again this discussion/debate began around BMWs motivations. To understand their motivations we simply must look at company strategy, their increasing focus on cost and part commonality. Most M owners want to have a special (i.e. rare) car (even if only slightly more special/rare than the base model). The M3/4 of tomorrow is becoming less special with respect to engines. And, again, these choices are not being made at the heavy hand of green politicians and governments. The volume of M cars is way too low to affect fleet average consumption in any appreciable fashion.
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      10-02-2012, 05:16 PM   #421
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I see your still not getting it.....cc for cc the turbo gives the same response before boost.....when boost kicks in it is bye-bye NA version. You aren't losing a damn thing. Yes it FEELS like you are as the difference when on boost is like night and day,and once you feel the night you don't want the Day.
Trust me, I understand. The option for the new M3/4 is obviously not either a single or multiple turbo version of the existing S65 V8... The option also is not engine A without turbo and idnetical engine A with turbo. You are still losing. You are losing by having lag which a sizeable percentage of folks do not like, more power after lag or not.

This is largely about preference. You like turbos, you like big single turbos, you like turbo lag. That's fine. My preference and the preference of BMW M is completely different.

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Lol that is rich, you spout a whole bunch of missinformed info on Turbo engines almost as if you are the authority on the differences, and are calling me narrow minded. Funny In my world having pre-concieved ideas on a technology is narrow minded and ignorant.

...

I actually like the 'lag' because you know the big hit is coming, gives an extra dimension to get to grips with. An NA to me feels boring, like driving an AT on a track. Give me an MT big single Turbo any day. And to me that is much more M3 spirit than seemless boredom from idle to redline. Bring on F80, pity they are going to appease the Lag haters by adding 3 turbos.....but then some tuning company will ditch those and stick a decent 600bhp single on it, now that will be an M3 with balls.....happy days.
I've not "spread misinformation". Your view on why engines have multiple turbo chargers is clearly misinformed. They day you (again what are your qualifications other than "I love them there big turbos") have insights on the technical and marketing aspects of FI above and beyond BWM M is the day I'll bow down to you. Although you may like the rush of a big turbo kicking in like a shot of nitrous you must realize you are in a relative minority. Lastly your view on how marketing and engineering work at a large company is definitively naive. Have you ever worked in either field, at a large company or a small one? I have done both.

Last but not least I never called you ignorant, I said narrow minded and arrogant. Please do not put words in my mouth.
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      10-02-2012, 05:17 PM   #422
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I could have the balance wrong, but I recall hearing that BMW sold more M3's than 328's or 335's for at least one model year. The M3 is not rare. When I had my M Coupe, M3's were like taxi cabs. If you want a rare BMW, do not buy an M3. Of course using the rare logic, a 5GT would be stellar!
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      10-02-2012, 05:34 PM   #423
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I could have the balance wrong, but I recall hearing that BMW sold more M3's than 328's or 335's for at least one model year. The M3 is not rare. When I had my M Coupe, M3's were like taxi cabs. If you want a rare BMW, do not buy an M3. Of course using the rare logic, a 5GT would be stellar!
Going to need a source for the above, that sounds preposterous. No way it can be true unless it was a time when the models were changing and only the M remained on the old production line.

I also believe Swamp was saying the M3 is relatively rare. I live in L.A., you certainly see them but not in their droves unless it's a car meet. The M coupe was rare not due to limited production but due to limited demand.
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      10-02-2012, 05:46 PM   #424
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My preference and the preference of BMW M is completely different.
Aren't you being a bit presumptuous? You are the authority for BMW M?

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I've not "spread misinformation". Your view on why engines have multiple turbo chargers is clearly misinformed. They day you (again what are your qualifications other than "I love them there big turbos") have insights on the technical and marketing aspects of FI above and beyond BWM M is the day I'll bow down to you. Although you may like the rush of a big turbo kicking in like a shot of nitrous you must realize you are in a relative minority. Lastly your view on how marketing and engineering work at a large company is definitively naive. Have you ever worked in either field, at a large company or a small one? I have done both.

Last but not least I never called you ignorant, I said narrow minded and arrogant. Please do not put words in my mouth.
So why do engines have multiple turbo chargers?
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      10-02-2012, 06:23 PM   #425
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I could have the balance wrong, but I recall hearing that BMW sold more M3's than 328's or 335's for at least one model year. The M3 is not rare. When I had my M Coupe, M3's were like taxi cabs. If you want a rare BMW, do not buy an M3. Of course using the rare logic, a 5GT would be stellar!
In 2010,BMW sold around 19,000 E9X M3's worldwide and around 399,000 3 series worlwide. With about half of all M3's sold in the US.
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      10-02-2012, 07:07 PM   #426
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Aren't you being a bit presumptuous? You are the authority for BMW M?
No, my preferences just happen to align with prior BMW M engine philosophy. Well, "just happen" might be a oversimplification, but I was simply noting that they are the same.

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So why do engines have multiple turbo chargers?
Perhaps I can answer with an option that we can all choose from.

1. Because both BMW Marketing (many of whom drive or race competitively and have engineering backgrounds) AND BWM M Engineering are solving a non existent problem based on a misunderstanding of jargon (lag vs. boost threshold). In solving this non existent problem they are wasting 10's of millions of dollars or R&D and production costs on much more complex engines, with more parts and greater potential maintenance and warranty concerns.
2. Such and arrangement produces an engine with real and different characteristics which have advantages both from a feel perspective and when driving aggressively on a road type course. Similarly because customers have spoken with their pocketbooks and desire an engine that has the feel and performance character of an NA engine.

In short #1 is your contention and #2 is mine.
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      10-02-2012, 07:09 PM   #427
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In 2010,BMW sold around 19,000 E9X M3's worldwide and around 399,000 3 series worlwide. With about half of all M3's sold in the US.
Correct. In this range of 15-25k has been the typical annual sales of BMW M3s across multiple generations of the car. Thus this typically amounts to a sale of about 100k cars over a model lifespan.
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      10-03-2012, 01:30 AM   #428
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No real disagreement with this. It is simply that BMW M have literally preached the virtues of a high revving, naturally aspirated, instantaneous throttle response, Motorsport inspired engine over a very long time period. With previous engines and reaching a peak with the current S65 design they have adhered to this philosophy. Neither the S85 from the M5 nor the derived S65 from the M3 were the inexpensive approach. At the volumes involved they were actually very far from the "accountants choice". These decisions were possible at BMW M at that time but are simply not possible today.

Again this discussion/debate began around BMWs motivations. To understand their motivations we simply must look at company strategy, their increasing focus on cost and part commonality. Most M owners want to have a special (i.e. rare) car (even if only slightly more special/rare than the base model). The M3/4 of tomorrow is becoming less special with respect to engines. And, again, these choices are not being made at the heavy hand of green politicians and governments. The volume of M cars is way too low to affect fleet average consumption in any appreciable fashion.
I am sure that BMW will argue that with the 2014 F1 rule changes regarding moving to smaller displacement forced induction engines, they are still building their engines as per Motorsport's/Racing's lead!
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      10-03-2012, 07:34 AM   #429
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First of all ... +10 ... very good post !
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No real disagreement with this. It is simply that BMW M have literally preached the virtues of a high revving, naturally aspirated, instantaneous throttle response, Motorsport inspired engine over a very long time period. With previous engines and reaching a peak with the current S65 design they have adhered to this philosophy. Neither the S85 from the M5 nor the derived S65 from the M3 were the inexpensive approach. At the volumes involved they were actually very far from the "accountants choice". These decisions were possible at BMW M at that time but are simply not possible today.
Its absolutly clear, that an high revving engine ist the most costly engine alternative ... and this not about development cost, but only about production costs. An high revving and daily driveable engine like the S65 needs many special and costly to produce parts ... at the time the S65 or better the S85 was developed ... the credo of the M-GmbH was to put "racing"(or racing like) engines in coupe/sedan style sportscars ... this fullfil the second M-GmbH credo "... only 20% common parts with an regular 3er series car ...".
The BMW AG tolerate this and because of the the relative high price increase for an M-Car over an regular BMW they make also profit with this cars -> every thing was right ... the the M-GmbH brings profit for the BMW AG and the customers get there desired cars ... unique - special - full of M(Racing) spirit ... bud sadly this has change in the recent year ... making profit now isn´t good enough - more (as much as possible!) profit is better and the only way to got (in the BMW AG opinion like much other branches).
Because of THIS and only THIS ... single kind developments like the high rev-engines for the M cars would be ruled out because of their high(higher) production costs ... if the same (needed Hp rates) could be achieved with and cheaper AG-based engine with much common parts ... and the BMW marketing branch gave this an green touch and make this to an "special" and M-worthy engine. What the M fans wants and get until today doesn´t interrest the BMW AG because the now ... at the end they think they sell enough M-Cars at the same high price but with much more profit because of the "cheap" engine.

No one of us really knows what mpg the S65 could achieve in an much lighter car as the F8x would be ... the main problem of the relativ low mpg numbers of the E9x M3 was the weight of this car, which isn´t really suited well to work with an high-revving enginge ... even the M3s mpg is much better than other cars in its class !



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Again this discussion/debate began around BMWs motivations. To understand their motivations we simply must look at company strategy, their increasing focus on cost and part commonality. Most M owners want to have a special (i.e. rare) car (even if only slightly more special/rare than the base model). The M3/4 of tomorrow is becoming less special with respect to engines. And, again, these choices are not being made at the heavy hand of green politicians and governments. The volume of M cars is way too low to affect fleet average consumption in any appreciable fashion.
Again I can totally agree ... and the badest thing is that BMW decides not only for an cheaper engine than the great S65, but it must be "the cheapest" alternative that fullfil the hp-needs from around 450hp ... from more than one source from inside the M-GmbH you could hear that, the technican are willing to fullfil the demand about an turbo-engine as engine of choise for the F8x, but developed an unique and great 3.3ltr.V6 BiTurbo based on the S63Tü to fullfil the demands about power and better mpg for an F8x engine. And this sources all says all technicans prefer the V6 as the much better engine on M3/M4 demands ... but were overtrown by the cost reduction and profit maximation fraction that prefer the cheaper N55 based I6 for the new car - and the only advantage that the I6 has over the V6 was that it would be cheaper to produce than the V6 - development costs are not the problem, because thats are one time cost ... what counts are only the lifetime productions costs - the sources quote about <~1.000€ more per engine for the V6 ... an low disatvantage for an ~75K€ car, but too much if only the highest profit solution counts !!!

Greets Uli_HH
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      10-03-2012, 08:04 AM   #430
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and the badest thing is that BMW decides not only for an cheaper engine than the great S65, but it must be "the cheapest" alternative that fullfil the hp-needs from around 450hp ... the technican are willing to fullfil the demand about an turbo-engine as engine of choise for the F8x, but developed an unique and great 3.3ltr.V6 BiTurbo based on the S63Tü to fullfil the demands about power and better mpg for an F8x engine. And this sources all says all technicans prefer the V6 as the much better engine on M3/M4 demands ... but were overtrown by the cost reduction and profit maximation fraction that prefer the cheaper N55 based I6 for the new car -
Greets Uli_HH
Let's all boycot BMW M3 now ?
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      10-03-2012, 08:30 AM   #431
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Again I can totally agree ... and the badest thing is that BMW decides not only for an cheaper engine than the great S65, but it must be "the cheapest" alternative that fullfil the hp-needs from around 450hp ... from more than one source from inside the M-GmbH you could hear that, the technican are willing to fullfil the demand about an turbo-engine as engine of choise for the F8x, but developed an unique and great 3.3ltr.V6 BiTurbo based on the S63Tü to fullfil the demands about power and better mpg for an F8x engine. And this sources all says all technicans prefer the V6 as the much better engine on M3/M4 demands ... but were overtrown by the cost reduction and profit maximation fraction that prefer the cheaper N55 based I6 for the new car - and the only advantage that the I6 has over the V6 was that it would be cheaper to produce than the V6 - development costs are not the problem, because thats are one time cost ... what counts are only the lifetime productions costs - the sources quote about <~1.000€ more per engine for the V6 ... an low disatvantage for an ~75K€ car, but too much if only the highest profit solution counts !!!

Greets Uli_HH
I don't understand.....why would you want to waste money on a V6 turbo if you already have an I6 base engine. I turn it around, what advantage does a V6 have over the I6?
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      10-03-2012, 08:57 AM   #432
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I don't understand.....why would you want to waste money on a V6 turbo if you already have an I6 base engine. I turn it around, what advantage does a V6 have over the I6?
I think you are no real M3 driver/fan/lover ... all M3s until now had unique engines ... only based on AG engine block layouts, but with very few to no common parts ... an important reason to pay the high price increase over the regular 3er series -> the V6 was an unique engine developed special for the M3/M4 as it was until today ... the I6 was an in comparison with the other older engines only light modified ... most part which are new on that shown engine would be shurly parts of an future N55Tü or N5.(?) ... like it was the case with the S63Tü and the new N63Tü !!!

If M-GmbH technicans says the new developed V6 was in all points better than the I6 based on the N55 ... I beleave them. And only on an V6 you can use the "best responding turbo system" of the world this one of the S63Tü - with minimal lag ... it don´t works on an inline engine. And if you look at the GT-R you could easily see what an improofment the change from an I6 BiTurbo to an V6 BiTurbo could be !!! Only one of many reasons to choose an V6 over an I6 in an sportscar.
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      10-03-2012, 10:13 AM   #433
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I don't understand.....why would you want to waste money on a V6 turbo if you already have an I6 base engine. I turn it around, what advantage does a V6 have over the I6?
V6 is shorter/more compact so helps keep weight off the front reducing understeer. That said, I'd rather have a well thought out I6 than half-assed V6 (not that I think it would've been but more to illustrate the difference isn't huge between layouts).
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      10-03-2012, 10:17 AM   #434
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I think you are no real M3 driver/fan/lover ... all M3s until now had unique engines ... only based on AG engine block layouts, but with very few to no common parts ... an important reason to pay the high price increase over the regular 3er series -> the V6 was an unique engine developed special for the M3/M4 as it was until today ... the I6 was an in comparison with the other older engines only light modified ... most part which are new on that shown engine would be shurly parts of an future N55Tü or N5.(?) ... like it was the case with the S63Tü and the new N63Tü !!!

If M-GmbH technicans says the new developed V6 was in all points better than the I6 based on the N55 ... I beleave them. And only on an V6 you can use the "best responding turbo system" of the world this one of the S63Tü - with minimal lag ... it don´t works on an inline engine. And if you look at the GT-R you could easily see what an improofment the change from an I6 BiTurbo to an V6 BiTurbo could be !!! Only one of many reasons to choose an V6 over an I6 in an sportscar.
I understand your point, but the modified 3.2 engines in the 3 previous I6s (M3 evo, E46 M3 and CSL) were great. While this new engine may not be bored out to a unique displacement, it will be heavily modified from a regular-series BMW just like M engines of the past.

I'd have preferred the GTS 4.4 allied to lower weight and some mpg improvements but I still have faith the S55 will be a very good and well suited engine. Remember, this car is only likely to be 100 lbs lighter so torque is going to be welcome (even though I do not find the current 4.0 lacking due to its perfect gearing)
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      10-03-2012, 10:20 AM   #435
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I think you are no real M3 driver/fan/lover ... all M3s until now had unique engines ... only based on AG engine block layouts, but with very few to no common parts ... an important reason to pay the high price increase over the regular 3er series -> the V6 was an unique engine developed special for the M3/M4 as it was until today ... the I6 was an in comparison with the other older engines only light modified ... most part which are new on that shown engine would be shurly parts of an future N55Tü or N5.(?) ... like it was the case with the S63Tü and the new N63Tü !!!

If M-GmbH technicans says the new developed V6 was in all points better than the I6 based on the N55 ... I beleave them. And only on an V6 you can use the "best responding turbo system" of the world this one of the S63Tü - with minimal lag ... it don´t works on an inline engine. And if you look at the GT-R you could easily see what an improofment the change from an I6 BiTurbo to an V6 BiTurbo could be !!! Only one of many reasons to choose an V6 over an I6 in an sportscar.
I am not with you, all M3's since E30 used the base engine from an existing parts bin, and were developed into a special M3 engine. This hasn't changed for F80/2.

Sure E92 had a more special engine, but that was helped by the fact that the M3 GTR had a tuned version of this engine for racing, and it existed in V10 format already. Easy to lop off 2 cylinders. If the S65 didn't have such a short stroke (poor for turbocharging) they could again lop off another 2 cylinders to make V6 Turbo.

As for more options turbo charging a V engine, that is rubbish, an inline engine is much easier to plumb.
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      10-03-2012, 10:33 AM   #436
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V6 is shorter/more compact so helps keep weight off the front reducing understeer. That said, I'd rather have a well thought out I6 than half-assed V6 (not that I think it would've been but more to illustrate the difference isn't huge between layouts).
Good post. V's also have less oil pan surge. But pain to plumb turbo wise especially if going sequential turbo. Video on BMW's web site of 540D triple turbo is a good example of how easy on an inline 6.
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      10-03-2012, 12:31 PM   #437
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I am sure that BMW will argue that with the 2014 F1 rule changes regarding moving to smaller displacement forced induction engines, they are still building their engines as per Motorsport's/Racing's lead!

F1 boss and Ferrari boss have a problem with the way the turbo V6 sounds.
A SPEED report notes Ecclestone's reaction: "I listened to the noise of the engines in Maranello the other day,the new engine and the old engine,and even (Ferrari President) Luca di Montezemolo said it sounded terrible."

That whine of a high-revving V8 has become an integral part of the identify of F1 –it may be imprudent to meddle with with such an important part of the brand.

SPEED is reporting that Ecclestone believes the introduction of the turbocharged V6 mill should be postponed or even dropped altogether.
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      10-03-2012, 12:47 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
I am not with you, all M3's since E30 used the base engine from an existing parts bin, and were developed into a special M3 engine. This hasn't changed for F80/2.

Sure E92 had a more special engine, but that was helped by the fact that the M3 GTR had a tuned version of this engine for racing, and it existed in V10 format already. Easy to lop off 2 cylinders. If the S65 didn't have such a short stroke (poor for turbocharging) they could again lop off another 2 cylinders to make V6 Turbo.

As for more options turbo charging a V engine, that is rubbish, an inline engine is much easier to plumb.
SORRY ... I will not start a new debate about the "uniqueness" of M engines ... but this is really an problem of definition !

Until today all M3 engines only share the general engine block design with their AG counterparts on which they were based. Really all other parts are unique and specialy developed for M tasks ... in most cases the displacement was higher and even the material of the block in some cases was different. The main reason for this change in simple ... it was the only way to get the needed M Power out of the N/A engines ... this is for me what I define as "unique and special developed" M engine !!!


In the case of the engine F8x I am relativ shure that would be not the case ... many if not most of the parts which would be new in the "heavily modified" S55(?) we would see short time later in the N55 sucessor - named N55Tü or N5(?) ... simply because cost-reduction be many common parts is the new credo of the BMW AG - also for the special, low-production and high-priced M cars ... best example is the N63, were most of the new developed parts for the S63Tü come in AG form as the new N63Tü .... sorry, but this is for me what I not define as "unique and special developed" and therefor an for me not M-worthy engine !!!


AND its simply not true that an inline engine is the best choise for an turbo engine ... according to all experts and car journalists the best turbo engine developed until today (in terms of the main turbo problem - lag) is the S63Tü ... and this turbosystem could never be adopted to an inline engine.

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      10-03-2012, 01:11 PM   #439
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I don't understand.....why would you want to waste money on a V6 turbo if you already have an I6 base engine. I turn it around, what advantage does a V6 have over the I6?
It seems you are not up on the latest turbo tech from BMW M. Their unique intake manifold routing is another design feature not really possible in an inline configuration. They system contributes to less lag.

Yeah I know, I know... lag is misused jargon and a "non existent" problem that silly BMW marketeers and tinkerers are trying to solve anyway...

Read up here on cross-bank turbo charging.

The configuration is also more compact and contributes to an improved weight distribution. One drawback of the V6 is that is requires considerable mechanical balancing (robs some power) whereas the I6 has perfect first and second order balance.
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      10-03-2012, 01:21 PM   #440
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I hear what you say....

Do you not think that it is the cylinder head that makes the biggest difference to defining what 'special' is?

I'm pretty sure the S55 will have a all new cylinder head, pistons and conrods. Most likely Crankshaft too. For sure the Turbo arrangement will be unique, and according to the GURU above BMW M will ensure it has NO lag as that is what people want

The N55 of course has plenty of lag.
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