BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > BMW M3 (F80) and BMW M4 (F82) General Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-03-2012, 01:30 PM   #441
NISFAN
Brigadier General
 
NISFAN's Avatar
 
Drives: The best kind of F30 :)
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bedford UK

Posts: 3,166
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
It seems you are not up on the latest turbo tech from BMW M. Their unique intake manifold routing is another design feature not really possible in an inline configuration. They system contributes to less lag.

Yeah I know, I know... lag is misused jargon and a "non existent" problem that silly BMW marketeers and tinkerers are trying to solve anyway...

Read up here on cross-bank turbo charging.

The configuration is also more compact and contributes to an improved weight distribution. One drawback of the V6 is that is requires considerable mechanical balancing (robs some power) whereas the I6 has perfect first and second order balance.
swamp2

You impress me that you are taking an interest in Turbo charging ....Nice one!

Unfortunately the cross bank only works with V8's a V6 would not work any better than how the twin scroll works on the current N55.

Nice you've also discovered how balanced an I6 is, absolutely naturally balanced.
NISFAN is offline   England
0
Reply With Quote
      10-03-2012, 02:52 PM   #442
swamp2
Major General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 9,572
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
swamp2

You impress me that you are taking an interest in Turbo charging ....Nice one!

Unfortunately the cross bank only works with V8's a V6 would not work any better than how the twin scroll works on the current N55.

Nice you've also discovered how balanced an I6 is, absolutely naturally balanced.
I'm not nearly as anti turbo as you believe. I am however, anti big, single, high pressure turbo...

The cross bank idea is combined with a twin scroll. Both contribute to less lag.

You can find pretty old postings here on this forum with me discussing various engine configurations and their balance properties...
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-03-2012, 02:57 PM   #443
swamp2
Major General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 9,572
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Do you not think that it is the cylinder head that makes the biggest difference to defining what 'special' is?

I'm pretty sure the S55 will have a all new cylinder head, pistons and conrods. Most likely Crankshaft too. For sure the Turbo arrangement will be unique, and according to the GURU above BMW M will ensure it has NO lag as that is what people want
Not sure if that was directed more at Uli or me. Either way I will bite.

The heads indeed can be a huge part of turning an ordinary engine into a much more special and high performance one. The M3/4 will undoubtedly have a heavily modified or entirely different head. I am not so sure it will require different internals such pistons, rods and crank. The cost/volume side of the equation leads me to believe those will be common.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-03-2012, 03:03 PM   #444
NISFAN
Brigadier General
 
NISFAN's Avatar
 
Drives: The best kind of F30 :)
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bedford UK

Posts: 3,166
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I'm not nearly as anti turbo as you believe. I am however, anti big, single, high pressure turbo...

The cross bank idea is combined with a twin scroll. Both contribute to less lag.

You can find pretty old postings here on this forum with me discussing various engine configurations and their balance properties...
Ah no, a big efficient single turbo N55 producing 500hp mated to an eight speed DSG.....now that is my idea of M3 heaven

......with CSL lightweight bits on of course.
NISFAN is offline   England
0
Reply With Quote
      10-03-2012, 03:10 PM   #445
NISFAN
Brigadier General
 
NISFAN's Avatar
 
Drives: The best kind of F30 :)
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bedford UK

Posts: 3,166
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Not sure if that was directed more at Uli or me. Either way I will bite.

The heads indeed can be a huge part of turning an ordinary engine into a much more special and high performance one. The M3/4 will undoubtedly have a heavily modified or entirely different head. I am not so sure it will require different internals such pistons, rods and crank. The cost/volume side of the equation leads me to believe those will be common.
If they apply more boost they might want to go forged pistons, not sure what N55 already has. I wouldn't be surprised if they stretch it to the traditional 3.2litre...no??
NISFAN is offline   England
0
Reply With Quote
      10-03-2012, 05:16 PM   #446
RonSwanson
**Fortune Favors The Brave**
 
RonSwanson's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 328i M Sport
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 162
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Out with the old, in with the new.

I was looking forward to getting the V8 M3 Sedan in a couple years but right now I'm a bit sad its just a reworked/revamped V6 335 engine. Not that there's anything wrong with the N55 engine...I'm sure it will be faster and more fuel efficient etc, than the outgoing M3 (as it should be) but I LOVED the way that V8 sounded.
__________________
2013 ///M Sport Estoril Blue - Navigation - Enhanced BT - Xenons - Sport Auto
RonSwanson is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-03-2012, 05:43 PM   #447
Carl L
Lieutenant
 
Carl L's Avatar
 
Drives: 09 E92 M3 Jerez/Beige DCT
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: CA

Posts: 528
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonSwanson View Post
Out with the old, in with the new.

I was looking forward to getting the V8 M3 Sedan in a couple years but right now I'm a bit sad its just a reworked/revamped V6 335 engine. Not that there's anything wrong with the N55 engine...I'm sure it will be faster and more fuel efficient etc, than the outgoing M3 (as it should be) but I LOVED the way that V8 sounded.
I'm assuming typo, just a heads up before the vultures move in.
__________________
09 M3 E92: Jerez/Bamboo
-prev M-car: 08 M5
Here to learn about the F80
Carl L is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-03-2012, 05:51 PM   #448
RonSwanson
**Fortune Favors The Brave**
 
RonSwanson's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 328i M Sport
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 162
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl L View Post
I'm assuming typo, just a heads up before the vultures move in.
Thanks for the heads up, I guess I'm confused because the first post of this thread says it'll be an inline 6. The video sounded like a 6 too unless I need to check my hearing. I haven't read most of the thread yet, time to do some skimming.
__________________
2013 ///M Sport Estoril Blue - Navigation - Enhanced BT - Xenons - Sport Auto
RonSwanson is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-03-2012, 07:10 PM   #449
swamp2
Major General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 9,572
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
If they apply more boost they might want to go forged pistons, not sure what N55 already has. I wouldn't be surprised if they stretch it to the traditional 3.2litre...no??
The displacement of the new engine is a matter of debate. There is also some debate on what is forged in the N54 and N55. Best I can tell is that the N54 had a forged crank whereas the N55 has a cast one. However, the newer cast design was actually significantly lighter (3 kg). The resulting change was likely driven by a cost cutting exercise. Some claim the N54 also had forged Mahle pistons but others say not. I think the con rods in both are cast based on these pictures.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-03-2012, 07:47 PM   #450
Carl L
Lieutenant
 
Carl L's Avatar
 
Drives: 09 E92 M3 Jerez/Beige DCT
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: CA

Posts: 528
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonSwanson View Post
Thanks for the heads up, I guess I'm confused because the first post of this thread says it'll be an inline 6. The video sounded like a 6 too unless I need to check my hearing. I haven't read most of the thread yet, time to do some skimming.
Your ears are good - It is indeed a 6 but the 335 engine is an inline configuration not a V. Looks like this will be an I too. Quite a few people get annoyed when people mistake BMW's I6 as Vs.
Okay, I'm done interfering and geeking out
__________________
09 M3 E92: Jerez/Bamboo
-prev M-car: 08 M5
Here to learn about the F80
Carl L is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-03-2012, 09:31 PM   #451
RonSwanson
**Fortune Favors The Brave**
 
RonSwanson's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 328i M Sport
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 162
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl L View Post
Your ears are good - It is indeed a 6 but the 335 engine is an inline configuration not a V. Looks like this will be an I too. Quite a few people get annoyed when people mistake BMW's I6 as Vs.
Okay, I'm done interfering and geeking out
Thx for the clarification. I do realize itll be an inline 6 just like the 335. Was just commenting on how it sounds. If the vultures' only food source are people who say v6, they'll surely starve.
__________________
2013 ///M Sport Estoril Blue - Navigation - Enhanced BT - Xenons - Sport Auto
RonSwanson is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-03-2012, 10:53 PM   #452
US///M3
Banned
 
Drives: 1973 Jensen Interceptor
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shanghai, People's Republic of China

Posts: 1,266
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonSwanson View Post
Out with the old, in with the new.

I was looking forward to getting the V8 M3 Sedan in a couple years but right now I'm a bit sad its just a reworked/revamped V6 335 engine. Not that there's anything wrong with the N55 engine...I'm sure it will be faster and more fuel efficient etc, than the outgoing M3 (as it should be) but I LOVED the way that V8 sounded.
They're not gonna use the reworked/revamped V6 335 engine this time,it's gonna be based on the twin turbo inline 6.
US///M3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-03-2012, 11:12 PM   #453
RonSwanson
**Fortune Favors The Brave**
 
RonSwanson's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 328i M Sport
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 162
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
They're not gonna use the reworked/revamped V6 335 engine this time,it's gonna be based on the twin turbo inline 6.
Potato potatoe.
__________________
2013 ///M Sport Estoril Blue - Navigation - Enhanced BT - Xenons - Sport Auto
RonSwanson is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-04-2012, 03:31 AM   #454
NISFAN
Brigadier General
 
NISFAN's Avatar
 
Drives: The best kind of F30 :)
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bedford UK

Posts: 3,166
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
The displacement of the new engine is a matter of debate. There is also some debate on what is forged in the N54 and N55. Best I can tell is that the N54 had a forged crank whereas the N55 has a cast one. However, the newer cast design was actually significantly lighter (3 kg). The resulting change was likely driven by a cost cutting exercise. Some claim the N54 also had forged Mahle pistons but others say not. I think the con rods in both are cast based on these pictures.
I would like to think BMW will use displacement to differentiate the S55(??) from N55, and using a specific to S55 longer stroke forged crank would be a sensible way to achieve that.

Cast cranks have made a bit of a resurgence, think it's down to a new process that reduces the porosity.
NISFAN is offline   England
0
Reply With Quote
      10-04-2012, 10:24 AM   #455
US///M3
Banned
 
Drives: 1973 Jensen Interceptor
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shanghai, People's Republic of China

Posts: 1,266
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonSwanson View Post
Potato potatoe.
Okay Ronnie,there's no difference between an inline 6 and V6.
Both engines go Vroooom.
US///M3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-04-2012, 11:35 AM   #456
RonSwanson
**Fortune Favors The Brave**
 
RonSwanson's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 328i M Sport
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 162
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
Okay Ronnie,there's no difference between an inline 6 and V6.
Both engines go Vroooom.


You're the V6 vulture Carl warned me about. SHOO!!
__________________
2013 ///M Sport Estoril Blue - Navigation - Enhanced BT - Xenons - Sport Auto
RonSwanson is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-04-2012, 01:30 PM   #457
swamp2
Major General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 9,572
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
I would like to think BMW will use displacement to differentiate the S55(??) from N55, and using a specific to S55 longer stroke forged crank would be a sensible way to achieve that.

Cast cranks have made a bit of a resurgence, think it's down to a new process that reduces the porosity.
Both an increased displacement and forged crank would be sensible and welcomed changes to make the engine both better and more special. Unfortunately those are no longer the driving forces at BMW M. That being said, I certainly would not rule them out.

Despite process, with a similar design, I doubt there is any way to get the same consistency, yield strength nor fatigue resistance from a cast product.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-04-2012, 03:50 PM   #458
Uli_HH
Lieutenant
 
Uli_HH's Avatar
 
Drives: AW M3 E90)/ 523i Touring
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hamburg Germany

Posts: 572
iTrader: (0)

SORRY, but if the engine specs in this thread are correct ... and I think they would be, than that would be very bad news - engine wise ... torque increase but no hp-increase means that it only counts to make the engine as cheap as possible
An torque increase is an easy thing in the case of an turbo engine, but if they really cancel the planed/promised power increase to at least ~450hp that means that there is simple no more growth potential in the chosen N55 based I6 ... if there would be this potential I am to 100% shure the engine would have no less than 450hp !!!

Since my infos say clearly that the new S55(?) would be nearly in the same weight class of the S65 ... which the better end for the V8(!) ... it make for me no really sence to drop the great S65 for the S55(?) - performence wise not cost wise(!) ... I am 100% certain that with the better packing and even lighter N/A V8 in the overall F8x would perform even better and would be much moreo fun to drive (with an only slightly worse mpg number!) ... M3s were never high low-end-torque cars but yet in als cases better than all competitors ... they were real race cars in an coupe/sedan outfit never torque monsters !!!

Looks as if the BMW AG prepared from pure profit reasons to sacrifice almost everything that has identified a previously M3 ... the new M3 is from the motor point of something completely different than we are used to - more boring surfing on the torque wave as spontaneous biting revving -> more 335i than just a real M3 driver and fan can be right.


The rest of the car seems to be as great as expected ... agressive sporty styling and much lower weight ... seems as I should look if I can get an nearly new S65 from ebay and go to Manhart to get the real exciting new M3.

Greets Uli_HH

Last edited by Uli_HH; 10-04-2012 at 03:55 PM.
Uli_HH is offline   Germany
0
Reply With Quote
      10-04-2012, 04:11 PM   #459
NISFAN
Brigadier General
 
NISFAN's Avatar
 
Drives: The best kind of F30 :)
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bedford UK

Posts: 3,166
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
SORRY, but if the engine specs in this thread are correct ... and I think they would be, than that would be very bad news - engine wise ... torque increase but no hp-increase means that it only counts to make the engine as cheap as possible
An torque increase is an easy thing in the case of an turbo engine, but if they really cancel the planed/promised power increase to at least ~450hp that means that there is simple no more growth potential in the chosen N55 based I6 ... if there would be this potential I am to 100% shure the engine would have no less than 450hp !!!

Since my infos say clearly that the new S55(?) would be nearly in the same weight class of the S65 ... which the better end for the V8(!) ... it make for me no really sence to drop the great S65 for the S55(?) - performence wise not cost wise(!) ... I am 100% certain that with the better packing and even lighter N/A V8 the overall F8x would performe even better and would be no fun to drive ... M3s were never high low-end-torque cars but yet in als cases better than all competitors ... they were real race cars in an coupe/sedan outfit never torque monsters !!!

Looks as if the BMW AG prepared from pure profit reasons to sacrifice almost everything that has identified a previously M3 ... the new M3 is from the motor point of something completely different than we are used to - more boring surfing on the torque wave as spontaneous biting revving -> more 335i than just a real M3 driver and fan can be right.


The rest of the car seen to be as great as expected ... agressive sporty styling and much lower weight ... seems as I should look if I can get an nearly new S65 from ebay and go to Manhart to get the real exciting new M3.

Greets Uli_HH
That spec can't be right, 395lb.ft is 420hp at just over 5500rpm. You would need a significant drop off of torque above this to keep the hp at 420 ish. Not a characteristic of a well turbo charged engine.

On the turbo sizing front, that is quite a small turbo for a 3litre engine, a big (not that big) single capable of 450hp will come on boost by 2500rpm quite easily on it's own. A twin turbo system much lower. Really hope BMW aren't focussing on a 'no lag' approach sacrificing high rev punch. If so they may as well change the M3 into D3 and fit it with a diesel engine (330D produces 413ft.lb of torque).
NISFAN is offline   England
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2012, 07:07 PM   #460
auaq
New Member
 
Drives: 03 530i
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Raleigh, NC

Posts: 29
iTrader: (0)

Has anyone noticed something funny in that engine compartment?
auaq is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-08-2012, 11:03 PM   #461
SSJVegita
Private First Class
 
SSJVegita's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 BMW M3
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: NJ

Posts: 191
iTrader: (0)

nope nothing popped to me, what did you notice?

come on spill the beansssss lol
SSJVegita is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-09-2012, 07:02 AM   #462
auaq
New Member
 
Drives: 03 530i
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Raleigh, NC

Posts: 29
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSJVegita View Post
nope nothing popped to me, what did you notice?

come on spill the beansssss lol
Well don't give up yet! Look again.
auaq is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
2013 bmw m3, 2013 bmw m4, 2013 m3, 2013 m3 air curtain, 2013 m4, 2014 bmw m3, 2014 m3, 2014 m3 air curtain, 2014 m3 engine, 2014 m3 forum, 2014 m3 renders, 2014 m3 tire size, 2014 m3 tires, 2015 m3 engine, air curtain, air curtain bmw, air curtain bmw m3, air curtain m3, bmw air curtain, bmw f80, bmw f80 engine, bmw f80 forum, bmw f80 forums, bmw f80 m3, bmw f80 m3 sedan, bmw f80 m3 video, bmw f80 video, bmw f82, bmw f82 forum, bmw f82 forums, bmw f82 m3, bmw f82 m3 coupe, bmw f82 m3 forum, bmw f82 m4, bmw f82 m4 coupe, bmw f83, bmw f83 m3, bmw f83 m4, bmw m forum, bmw m forums, bmw m3 air curtain, bmw m4, bmw m4 coupe, bmw m4 coupe forum, bmw m4 forum, bmw m4 forums, bmw spy, bmw spy photo, bmw spy photos, bmw spy pic, bmw spy pics, bmw spy video, bmw spy videos, bmw spyshot, bmw spyshots, f30 m3 renders, f80, f80 bmw m3 engine, f80 engine, f80 m3 engine

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:13 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST