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      10-06-2012, 02:20 PM   #1
swamp2
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Revised F80 M3 / F82 M4 Performance Simulations and Predictions

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Although I am not too convinced that the new model will have "about" the same peak power (per the latest BIMMERPOST M3/M4 article), something around 395 ft lb torque, 420 hp and 7000 rpm is technically feasilbe (all the values and curves are reasonable). I'm sure hoping we get closer to 7500 rpm but certainly wouldn't guarantee it. In a prior post using 450 hp and a curb weight of about 3590. I came up with these prior predictions (full thread here).
  • 0-60 mph: 3.7 - 3.9 s
  • 0-100 mph: 8.6 - 8.8 s
  • 0-200 kph: 13.2 - 13.6 s (for our metric friends!)
  • 1/4 mi time: 11.9 - 12.1 s
  • 1/4 mi trap: 116 - 119 mph
  • top speed: 190 - 193 mph (of course true, not indicated, indicated should be just shy of 200 mph)
  • Nurburgring Nordschleife lap time (SportAuto): 7:53-7:58

Counting on a bit less weight (but certainly not meeting their goal of E46 M3 weight), I settled on 3475 lb for this next round of simulations. I've also used an 8 speed DCT transmission with 8th gear essentially as a an overdrive. Cutting to the chase here are some revised numbers:
  • 0-60 mph: 3.7 - 3.9 s (unchanged)
  • 0-100 mph: 9.1 - 9.3 s
  • 0-200 kph: 14.2 - 14.6 s (for our metric friends!)
  • 1/4 mi time: 12.0 - 12.3 s
  • 1/4 mi trap: 114 - 117 mph
  • top speed: 180 - 185 mph (of course true, not indicated)
  • Nurburgring Nordschleife lap time (SportAuto): 7:55-7:59 (again assuming the tires are not basically street legal race rubber)

As you can see a decision to lower peak power and reduce weight, along the lines in this post, does not help things over their somewhat heavier but much more powerful concept. You might attribute the unchanged 0-60 time to its high torque, however, it is ultimately because it makes more power at lower rpm, perhaps saying the same thing. The much higher torque certainly does not help things overall.

The numbers are certainly a step up over the existing car. However, given competitors and what competitors will have in production by that time, I don't believe these numbers (and thus the power and weight I've used) are sufficient to be a strong class dominator.
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      10-07-2012, 07:37 AM   #2
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swamp2: Nice work. Could you turn the crank one more time, this time for 3300 curb weight? Tks.
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      10-07-2012, 05:03 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Ducky View Post
swamp2: Nice work. Could you turn the crank one more time, this time for 3300 curb weight? Tks.
Just curious. Because you might be able to mod the car down to this weight if it comes in around 3450 or so? You don't actually think the car can be this light do you?
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      10-08-2012, 05:34 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Just curious. Because you might be able to mod the car down to this weight if it comes in around 3450 or so? You don't actually think the car can be this light do you?
Probably not but might be. Technology and materials science are steadily marching towards greater fuel efficiency through lighter materials. Car parts makers like my old home at Johnson Controls have aggressive programs to bring down component weight (JCI is a major maker of car seats/interiors ... and just bought Recaro). It can be done: the new C7 Corvette is rumored to be lighter than the C6, which note is already much lighter than the M3 , the one-series, or the Z4. So why not?
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      10-08-2012, 03:42 PM   #5
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No doubt folks are making efforts on not just power but weight. Based on the weight of the new 335i, which I believe is about 100 lb lighter than the current model (have not been able to get preicise and official information on that) I think even meeting the goal of around 3400 would be very expensive and difficult. Achieving 3330 as opposed to 3475 knocks a couple tenths off of the most common metrics that folks tend to discuss. See tables below.
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      10-08-2012, 05:47 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Although I am not too convinced that the new model will have "about" the same peak power (per the latest BIMMERPOST M3/M4 article), something around 395 ft lb torque, 420 hp and 7000 rpm is technically feasilbe (all the values and curves are reasonable). I'm sure hoping we get closer to 7500 rpm but certainly wouldn't guarantee it. In a prior post using 450 hp and a curb weight of about 3590. I came up with these prior predictions (full thread here).
  • 0-60 mph: 3.7 - 3.9 s
  • 0-100 mph: 8.6 - 8.8 s
  • 0-200 kph: 13.2 - 13.6 s (for our metric friends!)
  • 1/4 mi time: 11.9 - 12.1 s
  • 1/4 mi trap: 116 - 119 mph
  • top speed: 190 - 193 mph (of course true, not indicated, indicated should be just shy of 200 mph)
  • Nurburgring Nordschleife lap time (SportAuto): 7:53-7:58

Counting on a bit less weight (but certainly not meeting their goal of E46 M3 weight), I settled on 3475 lb for this next round of simulations. I've also used an 8 speed DCT transmission with 8th gear essentially as a an overdrive. Cutting to the chase here are some revised numbers:
  • 0-60 mph: 3.7 - 3.9 s (unchanged)
  • 0-100 mph: 9.1 - 9.3 s
  • 0-200 kph: 14.2 - 14.6 s (for our metric friends!)
  • 1/4 mi time: 12.0 - 12.3 s
  • 1/4 mi trap: 114 - 117 mph
  • top speed: 180 - 185 mph (of course true, not indicated)
  • Nurburgring Nordschleife lap time (SportAuto): 7:55-7:59 (again assuming the tires are not basically street legal race rubber)

As you can see a decision to lower peak power and reduce weight, along the lines in this post, does not help things over their somewhat heavier but much more powerful concept. You might attribute the unchanged 0-60 time to its high torque, however, it is ultimately because it makes more power at lower rpm, perhaps saying the same thing. The much higher torque certainly does not help things overall.

The numbers are certainly a step up over the existing car. However, given competitors and what competitors will have in production by that time, I don't believe these numbers (and thus the power and weight I've used) are sufficient to be a strong class dominator.


So basically, performance wise it will be almost the same with a slight edge to the F80/82. It (F80/82) will probably launch better with all that low end torque...
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      10-08-2012, 11:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
So basically, performance wise it will be almost the same with a slight edge to the F80/82. It (F80/82) will probably launch better with all that low end torque...
I think you may have misread the post. I actually figured many would. I probably should have changed the order of the lists around...

Anyway the top group of numbers was a very early prediction I made for the new M3/4 based on hypothetical numbers of 3590 lb and 450 hp. I explained how I got to the weight number in the post. The second group of numbers is based on the updated rumor posted here with a bit of "editorial freedom" on the weight - 3475 lb and 420 hp/395 ft lb torque.

In short we would have been a bit better off with the heavier car and more power, at least from the perspective of a straight line contest. Very likely such a car would also be faster on just about any track.

Both variations best the existing E9X, but not enormously so.
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Last edited by swamp2; 10-08-2012 at 11:51 PM.
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      10-09-2012, 07:18 AM   #8
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Let's look past the numbers and performance predictors. I'm in my 9th BMW, all new, the recent three of which have been first-model-year cars. There's good news and bad news.

The bad is that first-model-year cars may have hidden flaws that will be washed out in later model runs. The N54s HPFP issue is an example; the delaminating Corvette top another. But usually these are minor/livable and the fix forthcoming and covered by warranty.

Here's the good news: in addition to the upgrades in power etc., a new-model-year car brings in the latest BMW technology from across its fleet. iDrive moves to the latest generation. The HUD in the M3 shuld go forward to the wonderful HUD in the M5 and not just cycle forward that of the 335i. Better Bluetooth, better handling of digital technology across the board, better seats, better interior, better run-flats, etc. etc.

At the end of the day, for all but a few hard-case owners, your M3 is going to be a daily driver and a family car (or whatever passes for a family in your case). The go-fast/handle-great aspects are nice to have and nice to kick in now and again, but on real roads in real driving for the real world we live in, the tech and comfort goodies probably make our driving experience better than the go-fast stuff. New models have the maximum new content and with BMW, it just gets better and better all the time.

Buy to have a great track car. Own to have a great car.
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      10-09-2012, 10:33 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Ducky View Post
Let's look past the numbers and performance predictors. I'm in my 9th BMW, all new, the recent three of which have been first-model-year cars. There's good news and bad news.

The bad is that first-model-year cars may have hidden flaws that will be washed out in later model runs. The N54s HPFP issue is an example; the delaminating Corvette top another. But usually these are minor/livable and the fix forthcoming and covered by warranty.

Here's the good news: in addition to the upgrades in power etc., a new-model-year car brings in the latest BMW technology from across its fleet. iDrive moves to the latest generation. The HUD in the M3 shuld go forward to the wonderful HUD in the M5 and not just cycle forward that of the 335i. Better Bluetooth, better handling of digital technology across the board, better seats, better interior, better run-flats, etc. etc.

At the end of the day, for all but a few hard-case owners, your M3 is going to be a daily driver and a family car (or whatever passes for a family in your case). The go-fast/handle-great aspects are nice to have and nice to kick in now and again, but on real roads in real driving for the real world we live in, the tech and comfort goodies probably make our driving experience better than the go-fast stuff. New models have the maximum new content and with BMW, it just gets better and better all the time.

Buy to have a great track car. Own to have a great car.
Good post, especially with regard to dispelling the notion that 1st MY cars are inherently unreliable. They are not. . And I would also add it amuses me when people wait for the minor changes of an LCI car, why not just wait and get the F100 2020 model year?
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      10-10-2012, 09:13 PM   #10
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Good to see you back crunching #'s Swamp; I recall you doing so 5-6 years ago

If the design team can cut 120-130 kgs and get at least 420 hp and + 100 lb/ft it will be a very fun car. I'll be really shocked, though, if the production car can do much less than 4s (3.7 would be crazy).
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      10-10-2012, 09:27 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltigeur View Post
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Good to see you back crunching #'s Swamp; I recall you doing so 5-6 years ago

If the design team can cut 120-130 kgs and get at least 420 hp and + 100 lb/ft it will be a very fun car. I'll be really shocked, though, if the production car can do much less than 4s (3.7 would be crazy).
Thanks. As you know I like the application of science to cars. Because the new 335i is probably about 100 lb lighter than the outgoing model 34XX is possible with some considerable expense. That being said the numbers suggested in the big +100 ft lb thread are basically inconsistent. You simply can not have 395 ft lb of torque, a reasonable shaped torque curve, a 7000 rpm redline and only 420 hp. Something has to give. My strong bet is the 420 hp figure (although to be fair that rumor thread said something like about the same power as the outgoing car).

IMHO 34XX lb and 420 hp is not enough of a bump in power to weight either in an absolute sense (from existing car) or from a relative sense (i.e. vs. competitors). Do recall that peak engine torque is almost meaningless especially compared to peak hp when talking about the performance of a car.

You must be somewhat interested in the new model yourself?

Edit: Just saw your other post about likely moving to a 911... Sounds like a plan! It is the natural path of progression for a BMW lover.
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