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      10-04-2012, 04:34 PM   #67
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Looks nice too, but the first year will have alot of problems so i have to wait for the 2nd year coupe model. 3 years from now?
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      10-04-2012, 04:42 PM   #68
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Really digging the weight reduction. Only time will tell how this plays out, but will definitely be watching
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      10-04-2012, 04:52 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majdnoon View Post
Its funny all the people complaining about not getting 450hp. Don't forget that the E36 M3 had "only" 240hp, yet today, nearly 20yrs after its inception it is still lauded as one of the best handling cars ever made.

The E92 may have had 414hp, but its competition (C63, RS4/5) had more ponies and torque when the E92 was brand new. And it still beat them in performance.

Even now, 6yrs after the E92 has been introduced, the meager 414hp is STILL able to compete with (and in some instances beat) the current C63, Boss 302, and other cars in its segment that are way up on power.

An M car isn't only about power, its about feel, and the complete package that BMW delivers of perfection through sheer work of superior engineering.

Now don't get me wrong, 450hp would be pretty nice, and I would love to see a bump in power in the new one. However, it isn't really NECESSARY if the new M3/4 is gonna drop 300lbs and gain 100ftlbs.

In the face of all the complaints, just think about this: when has the M division disappointed us?
No offense, but the US spec E36 was a huge disappointment to me. Sure, M-cars are about more than their engine but drive the proper 316bhp Evo version as I did when living in Europe and let me know which car is more fun. If I only wanted handling I'd drive a Lotus. Handling allied to power and practicality are what make an M-car.

I am on the list for the F82 but, coming from an E92 and expecting to pay 80k, I certainly want more horsepower. I'm a track guy, so power for power's sake does not interest me, but at this price point they should at least provide a meagre 30-40hp bump if only so I don't have to read shrill taunts from the 335i guys.
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      10-04-2012, 04:53 PM   #70
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Looks nice too, but the first year will have alot of problems so i have to wait for the 2nd year coupe model. 3 years from now?
You should play the lottery with that crystal ball of yours...
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      10-04-2012, 04:58 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl L
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majdnoon View Post
Its funny all the people complaining about not getting 450hp. Don't forget that the E36 M3 had "only" 240hp, yet today, nearly 20yrs after its inception it is still lauded as one of the best handling cars ever made.

The E92 may have had 414hp, but its competition (C63, RS4/5) had more ponies and torque when the E92 was brand new. And it still beat them in performance.

Even now, 6yrs after the E92 has been introduced, the meager 414hp is STILL able to compete with (and in some instances beat) the current C63, Boss 302, and other cars in its segment that are way up on power.

An M car isn't only about power, its about feel, and the complete package that BMW delivers of perfection through sheer work of superior engineering.

Now don't get me wrong, 450hp would be pretty nice, and I would love to see a bump in power in the new one. However, it isn't really NECESSARY if the new M3/4 is gonna drop 300lbs and gain 100ftlbs.

In the face of all the complaints, just think about this: when has the M division disappointed us?
No offense, but the US spec E36 was a huge disappointment to me. Sure, M-cars are about more than their engine but drive the proper 316bhp Evo version as I did when living in Europe and let me know which car is more fun. If I only wanted handling I'd drive a Lotus. Handling allied to power and practicality are what make an M-car.

I am on the list for the F82 but, coming from an E92 and expecting to pay 80k, I certainly want more horsepower. I'm a track guy, so power for power's sake does not interest me, but at this price point they should at least provide a meagre 30-40hp bump if only so I don't have to read shrill taunts from the 335i guys.
Plus 100 Carl!!
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      10-04-2012, 05:09 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl L
No offense, but the US spec E36 was a huge disappointment to me. Sure, M-cars are about more than their engine but drive the proper 316bhp Evo version as I did when living in Europe and let me know which car is more fun. If I only wanted handling I'd drive a Lotus. Handling allied to power and practicality are what make an M-car.

I am on the list for the F82 but, coming from an E92 and expecting to pay 80k, I certainly want more horsepower. I'm a track guy, so power for power's sake does not interest me, but at this price point they should at least provide a meagre 30-40hp bump if only so I don't have to read shrill taunts from the 335i guys.

LOL! I'll give you that point about shutting up the 335 guys! As for the E36 though, I agree that it was a disappointment when it came out with the 3.0 and 240hp, but they rectified it by adding the 3.2, upping torque and power (in the Euro spec).
As for the US spec model, you're right, but I believe its more a matter of the US laws constraining the E36, as opposed to the M division slacking off (as evidenced by the Euro spec cars).
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      10-04-2012, 05:10 PM   #73
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I just can't wait till 2014
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      10-04-2012, 05:11 PM   #74
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i want it early 2013
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      10-04-2012, 05:27 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03BeastCharmer View Post
Disappointed with 450hp? Unless your car weighs over 4,500 lbs, 450hp is plenty of power, especially in the US.

If they drop 2-300 pounds, add a full helping of torque, the car will compete in it's natural environment (which is not the drag strip).

My thoughts exactly.
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      10-04-2012, 05:30 PM   #76
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Folks have already took most of the the words out of my mouth...

As NISFAN pointed out in another post these specs do not look very plausible.
The new engine will very likely redline in the 7500 rpm range (just a bit higher than the F10 M5). Similarly it should make constant torque to about 6500 rpm (the F10 M5 does so until almost 6000 rpm). However, 395 ft lb will make 420 hp at around only 5500 rpm. To not exceed a peak of 420 hp would require the torque to drop off steadily after 5000 rpm to only 315 ft lb at 7000 rpm along with a redline of 7000 rpm. Those simply do not seem like reasonable figures. If the engine makes torque and power curves anything like the M5 395 ft lb should make closer to 460 hp.

In short I do not at all buy 395 ft lb AND 420 hp.

Power to weight is what matters, period. Torque is relatively meaningless since you have to know gear ratios to make the torque something physically meaningful. That being said more torque does appear to lazy drivers who do not want to use their gearbox. With an 8 speed DCT this thing should maintain as high of an rpm as possible and take advantage of the DCT.

Weight claims: I also doubt they can achieve low 3400 lb range. It will just be too expensive to do so. Something in the 3500 range is more reasonable. However, it all depends on what the F30 335i obtains and I just have not seen a certain and final figure for that.

Power to Weight: 420 hp at 3415 lb would place the car right at about the F10 M5 power to weight although impressive, the current M3 has typically exceeded the prior generation M5 in power to weight. Something closer to 3550 lb with 450 hp is more reasonable solely from a trend perspective. Similarly there is still a power war of sorts going on. Most folks will just pass on the M3 if its power is so close or the same as the current generation car.

LOL at the comparisons between a tuned 335i and the next gen M3/4. Talk about not even a contest, strip nor track... This is almost a tautology isn't it. This is basically the same debate at tuned 335i > E92 M3 which only was the case under an aggressively tuned 335i and only at the drag strip.
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      10-04-2012, 05:53 PM   #77
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just remember gentlemen... this is about the package. This new m3 may never have the power of the n54 especially when it has upgraded turbos... that engine was seriously a one off. The more complex design of this motor may make things even harder to modify.
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      10-04-2012, 05:54 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2
Folks have already took most of the the words out of my mouth...

As NISFAN pointed out in another post these specs do not look very plausible.
The new engine will very likely redline in the 7500 rpm range (just a bit higher than the F10 M5). Similarly it should make constant torque to about 6500 rpm (the F10 M5 does so until almost 6000 rpm). However, 395 ft lb will make 420 hp at around only 5500 rpm. To not exceed a peak of 420 hp would require the torque to drop off steadily after 5000 rpm to only 315 ft lb at 7000 rpm along with a redline of 7000 rpm. Those simply do not seem like reasonable figures. If the engine makes torque and power curves anything like the M5 395 ft lb should make closer to 460 hp.

In short I do not at all buy 395 ft lb AND 420 hp.

Power to weight is what matters, period. Torque is relatively meaningless since you have to know gear ratios to make the torque something physically meaningful. That being said more torque does appear to lazy drivers who do not want to use their gearbox. With an 8 speed DCT this thing should maintain as high of an rpm as possible and take advantage of the DCT.

Weight claims: I also doubt they can achieve low 3400 lb range. It will just be too expensive to do so. Something in the 3500 range is more reasonable. However, it all depends on what the F30 335i obtains and I just have not seen a certain and final figure for that.

Power to Weight: 420 hp at 3415 lb would place the car right at about the F10 M5 power to weight although impressive, the current M3 has typically exceeded the prior generation M5 in power to weight. Something closer to 3550 lb with 450 hp is more reasonable solely from a trend perspective. Similarly there is still a power war of sorts going on. Most folks will just pass on the M3 if its power is so close or the same as the current generation car.

LOL at the comparisons between a tuned 335i and the next gen M3/4. Talk about not even a contest, strip nor track... This is almost a tautology isn't it. This is basically the same debate at tuned 335i > E92 M3 which only was the case under an aggressively tuned 335i and only at the drag strip.
the last thing u said means a lot to a lot of people... the m3 has to be faster than at least a tuned 335i to be a complete package.
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      10-04-2012, 06:23 PM   #79
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I'm a lover not a fighter. Simply, I wish I had the $$$ to look for a nice, mint conditioned E46 M3, and also add the F8x M3/4 to my stable. Me greedy. Me want all.
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      10-04-2012, 06:35 PM   #80
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say what you want about the engine, but that front end is amazing. I really think its those squared off angel eyes are what do it. I hope they bring those to the new M3.
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      10-04-2012, 06:45 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3
Same power...

That is really dissapointing . More torque if produced at lower RPMs does not translate in better acceleration. As was often debated on this forum, power to weight is the better indication of the acceleration capabilites of a drivetrain.

Less weight is a very good thing. But shedding 200-300lb won't be enough to keep the M3 competitive IMO, as it will only improve power to weight by a mere 5.5%. This is the equivalent of increasing power on the E9X by 23hp...

Maybe BMW will surprise us by underrating the F80/F82 as they have with all other recent engines. If 420 quoted translates in 450ish actual, then I'm happy .

BTW, that render does look good .
335's were beating m3s in a straight line while making the same or less horsepower. They all accelerated much faster due to the torque difference.
This new m3 will be much faster, 100ft pounds of torque makes a huge difference. And we all know this car is going to be underrated just like any turbocharged bmw.
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      10-04-2012, 06:49 PM   #82
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Jesus, people bitching about a car that hasn't been fully cooked up yet, that they haven't driven, weighs less and has more power and efficiency than what it's replacing. You all need to take a a Midol with a vodka/soda and relax a bit.

Granted my opinion doesn't really matter since When this car comes out I *hope* to be in the market for a used e90 M3

Seriously the next M3 will very likely be quite awesome.
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      10-04-2012, 06:49 PM   #83
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Quote:
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curb weight close to the E46 M3 my ass..
Exactly. BMW may be overextending itself. Same thing happened to Cadillac in the 70's, Sony, Kodak...lots of once great companies can fall. Obviously BMW will be fine $ wise in the immediate future, but I think it'll be more along the lines of Infiniti, Acura, etc. Fuel efficiency and appealing to the soccer moms over all else.

This is the company that used to preach in their marketing brochures that NA engines are superior to FI. RWD is superior to FWD or AWD. 50/50 weight distribution is key. Each one slowly going away.
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      10-04-2012, 07:05 PM   #84
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Why all the teasers...?
Just show us the animal and take my money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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      10-04-2012, 07:13 PM   #85
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Using it as a benchmark doesn't necessarily mean it will achieve E46 numbers/specs. What we should take from it is that it will likely lose weight which is already a plus given how BMW likes to beef up their cars as of late.

The ATS benchmarked the E46 but did it make an E46? No but the end result is still a fantastic car and something close to it.
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      10-04-2012, 07:28 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz
Too little.
With n54 engines able to produce numbers in that range without a lot of work, this does not seem compelling. We are talking somewhere in the neighborhood of 65-70 large for one that isn't even maxed out with options.

Sorry, but the M5 got a real HP and torque bump.
This isn't anything to write home about. Not impressed......
The f10 m5 may have gotten a hp bump but it also gained 350lb in curb weight. If this thing can make equal power with 300 less lbs than the e90 m3 it's going to be in the right direction. Maybe even rival an 09 gtr

This gives me hope that my next vehicle will be a BMW
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      10-04-2012, 07:40 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 宝马.e90 View Post
Using it as a benchmark doesn't necessarily mean it will achieve E46 numbers/specs. What we should take from it is that it will likely lose weight which is already a plus given how BMW likes to beef up their cars as of late.

The ATS benchmarked the E46 but did it make an E46? No but the end result is still a fantastic car and something close to it.
I think GM benchmarked the E90 for the ATS, not the E46 .
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      10-04-2012, 07:44 PM   #88
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Guys, there is no way in hell BMW would launch a new car like the M3 without giving it an official bump in power! That is marketing fail and BMW don't do that. As for the weight saving, it's said that they are "aiming" for it. Most likely, they will aim and miss. The real deal should weigh somewhere between the E46 and E92 M3s.
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