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      02-19-2013, 12:12 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE TECH View Post
Well cars sitting on the showroom floor unsold would mean that their counterparts were the desired models likely.
well that may be but they weren't sitting on the showroom floor for long. but take a look on the forums here at club M-DCT and 6MT. The 6MT has almost double the amount of members.
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      02-19-2013, 12:13 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1sikbmr View Post
well that may be but they weren't sitting on the showroom floor for long. but take a look on the forums here at club M-DCT and 6MT. The 6MT has almost double the amount of members.
Looking at a forum will NEVER give you any sort of true measure as to the market of a vehicle.
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      02-19-2013, 12:13 PM   #25
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I'm guessing the take-rate for the DCT has gotten higher each successive year, as it's proven to be a good option, faster, etc. I'm sure sales of the early years were affected by bad memories (and reviews) of the SMG.

Think it will be a no-cost option on the new M3/4? The manual is a no-cost option on the M5. Pretty much a given that will be the final time it's offered in that car...
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      02-19-2013, 12:13 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThreeThirtyFiveI View Post
I'll take a F80 M3 xDrive with MT... please BMW.
He specifically said you can NEVER expect this to happen.

If you want AWD with an M badge, get an X5 or X6.
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      02-19-2013, 12:14 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1sikbmr View Post
The 6MT has almost double the amount of members.
Manual owners are more likely enthusiasts, and more likely to frequent establishments such as this.
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      02-19-2013, 12:16 PM   #28
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Gah it annoys me that we're talking AWD because we'll be at 600+HP in a few years and still getting 15mpg. This horsepower war has got to change. How about a 400HP car that gets 30mpg (or more?) and doesn't need AWD to put the power down. That's the technology I want. Here's to hoping the new NSX delivers some innovative engine tech (yes I know it will be AWD).
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      02-19-2013, 12:17 PM   #29
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Quote:
To this, Nitschke reaffirms M's stance on RWD: "Our philosophy in regards to steering feel and precision is that rear-wheel drive is the best solution," ... "xDrive brings an 80-90kg weight penalty and the M differential is the industry's best rear-drive set-up."
Com'on...
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      02-19-2013, 12:17 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by THE TECH View Post
Looking at a forum will NEVER give you any sort of true measure as to the market of a vehicle.
this much i know but still has some credit to it. out of every M owner i've met only 2 have DCT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davesaddiction View Post
Manual owners are more likely enthusiasts, and more likely to frequent establishments such as this.
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      02-19-2013, 12:19 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davesaddiction View Post
I'm guessing the take-rate for the DCT has gotten higher each successive year, as it's proven to be a good option, faster, etc. I'm sure sales of the early years were affected by bad memories (and reviews) of the SMG.

Think it will be a no-cost option on the new M3/4? The manual is a no-cost option on the M5. Pretty much a given that will be the final time it's offered in that car...
the SMG in the e60 M5 was also a no option. I guess with the M3 it "cost" more so they charge you.
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      02-19-2013, 12:22 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako View Post
Audi S3/RS3 Sedan = AWD
Mercedes CLA AMG = AWD
Audi RS4/5 = AWD
Mercedes E/CLS AMG = AWD
Mercedes C63 next gen = ???
Porsche baby panamera (future) = AWD option

All the Germans are doing it, come on BMW, give me a M2GC or M4GC with AWD option.

I had a C63 for 3 years, and got by just fine in the winter with winter tires, but switched to a 335 xdrive this year and LOVE it (also with winter tires), so much more fun to drive in the winter than the C63 was because of the increased traction when accelerating and in turns.

I think BMW is going to be suprised to see how many potential buyers go to Mercedes because of their AWD offering. Audi has been stealing customers for years because of it. AMG, M, S/RS all make amazing vehichles, can't say the same for all their "normal" cars though.
I don't know how much of an effect it's going to have if you're going to compare M/AMG/Quattro(RS). If we were talking about base models, definitely but the performance models are already low volume anyway, I'm not sure it's going really change someone's mind. I'm not saying it won't persuade some people to leave the M5 for the E63 and RS6 but I just don't think it's going to have a large impact where it's going to force BMW to move to an xDrive M car sooner than they plan.

Looking at some of the people on this forum who are likely more of an enthusiast than the average joe, they would still pick the F10 M5 over the E63 AMG 4Matic when it comes out. If you have sales data comparing the RS 6 vs. both the E63 AMG and M5 showing the trend towards the RS6's Quattro setup, I take back everything I said.
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      02-19-2013, 12:26 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
As long as BMW ///M stays with RWD, I will stay with BMW ///M. I'm considering the next generatoin BMW ///M4 with a manual transmission for my next ///M. Can't wait to see what they deliver!
I'm with you Dave...right now, based on what I have heard, I am very interested in the 4. All depends on how it handles at the track. IMHO, it is have luxury feel for day-to-day use (M5) or parting with them for a more appropriate vehicle for track use (M3/4). The older I get, the more I think I may opt for the latter - dare I say P-car?
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      02-19-2013, 12:26 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
As long as BMW ///M stays with RWD, I will stay with BMW ///M. I'm considering the next generatoin BMW ///M4 with a manual transmission for my next ///M. Can't wait to see what they deliver!
I'm with you Dave...right now, based on what I have heard, I am very interested in the 4. All depends on how it handles at the track. IMHO, it is have luxury feel for day-to-day use (M5) or parting with them for a more appropriate vehicle for track use (M3/4). The older I get, the more I think I may opt for the latter - dare I say P-car?
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      02-19-2013, 12:40 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davesaddiction View Post
I'm guessing the take-rate for the DCT has gotten higher each successive year, as it's proven to be a good option, faster, etc. I'm sure sales of the early years were affected by bad memories (and reviews) of the SMG.

Think it will be a no-cost option on the new M3/4? The manual is a no-cost option on the M5. Pretty much a given that will be the final time it's offered in that car...
that's one way to drive down "demand" for manuals, offer DCT and manual at the same price.
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      02-19-2013, 12:41 PM   #36
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good stuff....NOT!
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      02-19-2013, 12:41 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako View Post

I think BMW is going to be suprised to see how many potential buyers go to Mercedes because of their AWD offering. Audi has been stealing customers for years because of it. AMG, M, S/RS all make amazing vehichles, can't say the same for all their "normal" cars though.
I really do not think we will see an xDrive M4 or any other M model in xDrive.

I do think we will see more M tuned models though. Like: M335i/M435i xDrive. We already have an M135i xDrive and M550d xDrive models. Soon we will see an M650d xDrive too. Its only a matter of when not IF BMW starts rolling out more and more M-tuned cars to fit between a hard core M model and the "softer" AG tuned cars.
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      02-19-2013, 12:41 PM   #38
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AWD vs RWD

This guy has no idea what he is talking about period.

Reason is if future generations of M5/M6 increases torque to keep in with the competition than BMW has no choice but put AWD on the cars. These cars already put out crazy torque number and to put more torque in future models to keep up with the competition without AWD BMW M5/M6 will either just spin it's wheels or have tires as wide as the car, or just spin it's tires while the competition drives away. Also the market is asking for AWD as we can see with Audi's increasing sales and AMG adding AWD.
Also to say AWD cars can't handle is retarded as the GT-R has supercar performance with AWD.
The M3 models are still ok with RWD because the torque and power is low enough that you can get traction.
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      02-19-2013, 12:46 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1sikbmr View Post
the SMG in the e60 M5 was also a no option. I guess with the M3 it "cost" more so they charge you.
likely two reasons for extra cost of DCT in our E9X M3s:

1. BMW sales projections thinks manuals would consist of a "significant" portion of sales for our M3s.

2. Initial DCT development just finished, and the E9X M3 was the first car outfitted with this. BMW had to recoup development cost, so those who really wanted a DCT, would have to pay up for it.


I think these are the two reasons E60 M5 and the new F10 M5 offer manuals as a no-cost option...simply more SMG/DCT sales, and the SMG/DCT development costs has been recouped, or mainly offset, and if you're cynical, for production cost perspective, it's easier to offer a cookie-cutter option than to continue minor developments and updates on a 6MT.

just my thoughts, I think it's 100% a business, development cost reasons.
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      02-19-2013, 01:06 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5
As long as BMW ///M stays with RWD, I will stay with BMW ///M. I'm considering the next generatoin BMW ///M4 with a manual transmission for my next ///M. Can't wait to see what they deliver!
This
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      02-19-2013, 01:07 PM   #41
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Its very simple, make all cars RWD and leave the xDrive as an option, just like you have the DCT with a Manual option. Some people will buy these cars with AWD and some will take them with RWD. But if you offer AWD, Audi wont be happy!
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      02-19-2013, 01:11 PM   #42
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This is why ///M is doing M performance models...to have more variety with XDrive and diesel options. I think it's great that they're sticking to their core values. A sharp contrast to the AG cars.
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      02-19-2013, 01:15 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoz View Post
Its very simple, make all cars RWD and leave the xDrive as an option, just like you have the DCT with a Manual option. Some people will buy these cars with AWD and some will take them with RWD. But if you offer AWD, Audi wont be happy!
Exactly what I was going to say...

There is no need to make AWD standard on all the M models, but it 100% should be an option for those who live in the North. I have been on the fence about an M5 for almost a year and if I don't find my R8 soon, I will likely order the 2014 M5 (LCI). However, the one negative in the back of my head is the RWD. I would be driving the M5 all year round and its nice to have an AWD car in the winter here, not to mention it would put down the power in the summer as well.

That would be the most logical thing for ///M to do, MAKE IT AN OPTION, NOT STANDARD!
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      02-19-2013, 01:17 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M54ccibo View Post
I'm with you Dave...right now, based on what I have heard, I am very interested in the 4. All depends on how it handles at the track. IMHO, it is have luxury feel for day-to-day use (M5) or parting with them for a more appropriate vehicle for track use (M3/4). The older I get, the more I think I may opt for the latter - dare I say P-car?
Well that's the thing. I think BMW ///M may be headed more in the direction of Porsche with the next M3/M4. From what we have gathered the next gen M4 will focus on being lighter rather than on adding more horsepower, but will retain RWD, and will have a higher level of luxury and convience than a Porsche. To me the M4 sounds promising if BMW ///M does these things:

Light Chassis: 3,400lbs or less.
RWD
Active ///M Differential: This is what really makes the RWD potent enough to compete with AWD.
Greater Torque (around 400ft/lbs): With the ///M Differential, we'll be able to use more torque more efficiently, meaning no more spinning tires off the line and such.


Even some of the fastest Porsches don't have any more than 450hp. I think the M4 is going to be very very fast with great luxury, tech features, design, and convenience. Plus I think it's going to look really cool with the 4 series getting a wider stance and lower roof line than the current E92.

Time will tell!
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