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      02-19-2013, 04:11 PM   #67
Robin_NL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna_hp

The taboos are fleeting. Forced induction was one of them.
BMW introduced forced induction (turbocharging )back in 1972, the Turbo prototype and the 1973 2002 Turbo , way before //M was established. I don't see any problems
In real life they are easier to drive and more powerful and get a better Mpg too plus on track they're no slouch either....

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      02-19-2013, 04:12 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThreeThirtyFiveI View Post
Has anyone seen what is Audi has done with their S8? NO launch control, just plain traction and power to the ground through AWD and with all that it will keep up with the M5. I can't imagine what the M5 would do with the right xDrive system.
What is your definition of keeping up?
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      02-19-2013, 04:23 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Gunfun View Post
What is your definition of keeping up?
Sorry I meant beat. I'm just saying, there's a lot of benefit to the AWD debate.

Straight line:

0 to 60 (3.5 S8 /3.7 M5)

1/4 Mile (11.8 S8 / 11.9 M5)
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      02-19-2013, 04:52 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
In real life they are easier to drive and more powerful and get a better Mpg too plus on track they're no slouch either....
Except for the people who actually track their cars on a consistent basis and track them HARD. Force induction engine are a pain in the ass, heat soak becomes a major problem on hot track days.
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      02-19-2013, 04:55 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW View Post
I think you are absolutely wrong in that the market is not asking for AWD.
Let's look at the facts.

1. Audi sales are increasing = Quattro, Sales of Audi has been on the rise for over 5+years worldwide so it isn't because it is cool and in style now.
2. Ferrari, AMG and other high power/Torque cars are starting to hop onto the AWD be it either for traction or market demand
3. Willing to bet that Xdrive sales will beat RWD sales shortly if not already.
4. You can't give to the market AWD if they aren't asking for it, basics of marketing my friend as doing what you are saying is a money losing business model.
I am not going to argue the benefits of AWD which are obvious, I am simply stating that most of the world actually DOES look at Audi as being a "cool" brand and not buying them just for their Quattro technology. This may be true for some niche markets (Russia, American Mid-West/North-East, Canada, etc.) but Audi has had Quattro for 30 years so why haven't they beaten BMW since the 80s since everyone apparently wants AWD???

Audi sales are increasing world wide through aggressive styling and marketing themselves as a cool hip luxury brand and not positioning themselves to be stuffy like Merc or yuppie like BMW.

In the words of Steve Jobs..."people don't know what they want until you show it to them."
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      02-19-2013, 05:08 PM   #72
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Turbochargers - not quite growing on me yet...

Finally, regarding the move away from naturally aspirated engines, Nitschke said: "It's not a change in philosophy, it's a change in technology. Turbocharging is better for fuel savings and CO2."


I see the need for turbocharging and think it's a great solution. I wouldnt mind it if it didnt gargle up the exhaust note so much. There's just no comparison between the current M3 revs and the new M5.
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      02-19-2013, 05:45 PM   #73
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It's very sad. "We" here on a forum are a very small percentage of the M car market and even "we" can't agree on what an M car should be. Yes I believe it should be a special lineup car true to its heritage, but as stated before "we" do not buy most of the M cars. Money and profit is all that matters to a company like it or not. BMW will make what the buyers are buying and demanding. I don't blame them, but I also don't like it. Using myself as an example, I don't buy new cars. I get them used with a manual and rear wheel drive. I like sliding it around and working to control it. I don't care as much about numbers like I used to. (Think GTR) I'll take high revving please with Motorsport lineage even if I never use it's full potential. (Although I track). BMW could care less what I think. I don't buy new. They sell an idea to people with money who want to be something they are not. This is the result of success. BMW has accomplished that with M, hence that letter on as many vehicles as possible. Man I love my current, used rwd, high revving, manual dinosaur.
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      02-19-2013, 06:32 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1sikbmr View Post
really? when shopping around in the tri-state 80% of the M3's were manual. I had to look very hard to find a DCT. I really hope the manual lives on forever.
Same here! Near impossible to find a DCT, had to pick one up from Kentucky.
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      02-19-2013, 06:56 PM   #75
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Love the comment about weight being a penalty when adding AWD....

Duh! Then why do they continually add weight to the new gens and making them all porkers - very contradicting.
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      02-19-2013, 07:06 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlammedM6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoz View Post
Its very simple, make all cars RWD and leave the xDrive as an option, just like you have the DCT with a Manual option. Some people will buy these cars with AWD and some will take them with RWD. But if you offer AWD, Audi wont be happy!
Exactly what I was going to say...

There is no need to make AWD standard on all the M models, but it 100% should be an option for those who live in the North. I have been on the fence about an M5 for almost a year and if I don't find my R8 soon, I will likely order the 2014 M5 (LCI). However, the one negative in the back of my head is the RWD. I would be driving the M5 all year round and its nice to have an AWD car in the winter here, not to mention it would put down the power in the summer as well.

That would be the most logical thing for ///M to do, MAKE IT AN OPTION, NOT STANDARD!
People who wants to drive an M car all year around especially in the snows are minority. It is like there are people who drive their Ferraris in the snow but just few. And with the rite winter tires, u will be fine in the snow in Ontario. We get much more snow in Alberta, and my m3 never let me down. U always get better Handling with a RWD. There are so many videos and article proved that the M3 is more fun to drive than the RS5.
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      02-19-2013, 07:08 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zebra99 View Post
Love the comment about weight being a penalty when adding AWD....

Duh! Then why do they continually add weight to the new gens and making them all porkers - very contradicting.
This.

I love the fact that he was claiming that AWD will add weight when the latest M cars have been massive pigs. Granted, they are "aiming" for E46 M3 weight with the new upcoming M3/M4, but that's still speculation. I somehow doubt it'll be close to the target weight when you add a few bells and whistles to the car, that most will inevitably add (for resale value, of course).
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      02-19-2013, 07:11 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC
Except for the people who actually track their cars on a consistent basis and track them HARD. Force induction engine are a pain in the ass, heat soak becomes a major problem on hot track days.
Strange. So my ex E90 M3 suffered loss of brakes after some 5 laps already and the front tyres getting too
hot as well. The 1M s temperature getting higher, just like the M3 s engine temperature but for the rest no real problems like with the M3. Urban myth or something ?

I understand the heat problem thing with FI engines in those circumstances .and I also know they are true. But hey if the other car had more issues stated above what can I say ?


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      02-19-2013, 07:13 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThreeThirtyFiveI
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Gunfun View Post
What is your definition of keeping up?
Sorry I meant beat. I'm just saying, there's a lot of benefit to the AWD debate.

Straight line:

0 to 60 (3.5 S8 /3.7 M5)

1/4 Mile (11.8 S8 / 11.9 M5)
While I understand your point, love xDrive without a doubt, it's awesome how quick the M5 is without it.

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      02-19-2013, 07:21 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by MrClean335i View Post
Nice. Cant wait for the M4
Hey, what's up?
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      02-19-2013, 07:29 PM   #81
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But what are the plans for cutting weight?
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      02-19-2013, 07:31 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eMvy View Post
"It's not a change in philosophy, it's a change in technology. Turbocharging is better for fuel savings and CO2."

Forced induction has been around since the late 19th century. M cars have always had the opportunity to utilize FI, but they didn't. I would argue that this is a philosophical change fuel savings and CO2 emissions now take precedent over the driving experience. Whether this is good or bad can only be left to debate.

It's the governments basically forcing them to use Turbo Chargers otherwise they couldn't meet future emission requirements. It really sucks... I guess I'll be an oldtimer fan when I get older
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      02-19-2013, 07:52 PM   #83
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Finding a manual E92 M3 is extremely difficult as is finding an E46. Ever since the steptronic, smg, and dct came about, finding a car of the like is near impossible unless specifically ordered from factory. It's so sad.
It took me forever to find mine, but I finally found one that was still CPO.
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      02-19-2013, 08:09 PM   #84
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1M is more fun to drive than a RS3 and better on track; manual+rwd vs. DSG+awd, both turbo.
M3 is more fun to drive than a RS5 and better on track; manual or DCT+rwd vs. DSG+awd, both naturally aspirated engines.

BMW should keep those above and other similar "facts" in mind instead of doing what others do. This is like they are looking forward to giving up on brand's strengths, absurd imo.

Performance cars are not meant to be driven by people who can't drive anything even on a straight line, you can't produce a sports car and define "everyone" as the profile for your target market. These cars are not supposed to be show only, they should merely show what they are capable of doing and that's it.

Or I am a relic which may well be true as well
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      02-19-2013, 08:13 PM   #85
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I dont get the fuel saving idea of a FI engine. I have onwed a couple and i have always gotten better mileage out of my NA cars. And they also aren't perfect in the delivery as you can feel the boost coming on and off making the pedal response very... Inorganic.

I once had a peugeot 207 turbo and my old clio sport kicked its ass in every front with outstanding mileage

I also currently have an N52 130i and is better that the 2.0 ecoboost taurus i have as a company car. That thing drinks petrol like mad and even trying harder it wont give more than 25mpg whereas my N52 marvel does almost 30 if I care.

So all that bs about mpg is just inflated numbers as real world fuel economy numbers are very bad for FI engines.
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      02-19-2013, 08:45 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maupineda View Post
I dont get the fuel saving idea of a FI engine. I have onwed a couple and i have always gotten better mileage out of my NA cars. And they also aren't perfect in the delivery as you can feel the boost coming on and off making the pedal response very... Inorganic.

I once had a peugeot 207 turbo and my old clio sport kicked its ass in every front with outstanding mileage

I also currently have an N52 130i and is better that the 2.0 ecoboost taurus i have as a company car. That thing drinks petrol like mad and even trying harder it wont give more than 25mpg whereas my N52 marvel does almost 30 if I care.

So all that bs about mpg is just inflated numbers as real world fuel economy numbers are very bad for FI engines.
Definitely. Can't wait to see the real world fuel economy on these cars. That'll be a nice laugh.
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      02-19-2013, 09:00 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
BMW introduced forced induction (turbocharging )back in 1972, the Turbo prototype and the 1973 2002 Turbo , way before //M was established. I don't see any problems
In real life they are easier to drive and more powerful and get a better Mpg too plus on track they're no slouch either....

Cheers
Robin(ex E90 M3)
Oh I'm not saying that FI engines aren't a desirable compromise, I'm just saying that BMW PR is full of shit. They're purely corporate-minded. They are just going to say whatever makes them look best.

BMW PR was very negative on forced induction when some competitors were beginning to utilize it, especially on smaller engines. MB with their "Kompressor" engines in some of their smaller cars, Audi with its 2.0T and 2.7T engines, and of course porsche had been selling their Turbo for a long time. BMW wanted to be seen as spiritually closer to Ferrari with their high revving engines.

Back then they were only selling NA engines so they claimed that FI engines inevitably lead to unacceptably compromised handling. Now they only have FI engines so they claim that NA is an unacceptable compromise on fuel economy.
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      02-19-2013, 09:04 PM   #88
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Amen to that! I'd LOVE to see an AWD M3 sedan. I'm sorry, but RWD just isn't practical in the northern climates. Audi is ridiculously popular in Alaska due to AWD, but I'd much rather have an AWD M3 than a RS4/6. I'm also in agreement with other posters that AWD is inevitable given the ever-increasing HP produced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThreeThirtyFiveI View Post
I'll take a F80 M3 xDrive with MT... please BMW.
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