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      06-13-2013, 07:51 AM   #45
Uli_HH
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Originally Posted by Hoosiers View Post
So the the car will be nose heavy, great. A heavier engine with lighter doors and trunk creating a lighter rear-end. Wow, this car is going along the lines of the current F30 and M5 failure. You want the weight reduction in the nose if you had to pick. We already know the car is BIGGER dimensionally than the current M3, now it looks like the front end will be heavier as well. That's just great for turns, who cares how light the doors are.
Thanks for bring it on the point, why the F8x gets an V6 !!!

The lighter you make the car with lightweight components, the harder it is to balance a long i6 with weight measures in the tail.
A compact and short V6 would be the logical solution for a balanced and perfect 50:50 weight distribution in an lightweight M3/M4, even if the V6 will also be heavier than the S65.

Just my 2 cents.
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      06-13-2013, 09:23 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
Thanks for bring it on the point, why the F8x gets an V6 !!!

The lighter you make the car with lightweight components, the harder it is to balance a long i6 with weight measures in the tail.
A compact and short V6 would be the logical solution for a balanced and perfect 50:50 weight distribution in an lightweight M3/M4, even if the V6 will also be heavier than the S65.

Just my 2 cents.
50:50 is only perfect in BMW marketing talk. In general, a rearward weight bias is preferable for handling dynamics.
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      06-13-2013, 09:45 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
50:50 is only perfect in BMW marketing talk. In general, a rearward weight bias is preferable for handling dynamics.
Not, or do you have fact? There is car named Ferrari F40 and it have 50:50 weight distribution. But anyway only weight distribution not say anything, it depends so much were the weight is and are weight divided evenly on each corner/wheel.

And for V6 vs I6 talking, who cares is car 0.1s faster on track whit V6. I6 just sound so much better and this mean ten times more. If you want go 0.1s faster on track, rent a race car driver to drive. Before someone say there is no differend on sound, then you mean too that there is no differend on sound between Flat six. and V6 also.

E: Why Nissan GTr VR38DET is so heavy 275kg (~600lbs) vs 335i N55 190kg (400lbs)

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      06-13-2013, 12:47 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Holander View Post
Not, or do you have fact? There is car named Ferrari F40 and it have 50:50 weight distribution. But anyway only weight distribution not say anything, it depends so much were the weight is and are weight divided evenly on each corner/wheel.

And for V6 vs I6 talking, who cares is car 0.1s faster on track whit V6. I6 just sound so much better and this mean ten times more. If you want go 0.1s faster on track, rent a race car driver to drive. Before someone say there is no differend on sound, then you mean too that there is no differend on sound between Flat six. and V6 also.

E: Why Nissan GTr VR38DET is so heavy 275kg (~600lbs) vs 335i N55 190kg (400lbs)
I really doubt the F40 is 50/50. I've never heard of a mid engined car with that type of distribution save for front mid engined cars like the Corvette, SLR, SLS, etc. Ferrari's MR cars are almost always around 43/57.
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      06-13-2013, 12:58 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holander View Post
Not, or do you have fact? There is car named Ferrari F40 and it have 50:50 weight distribution. But anyway only weight distribution not say anything, it depends so much were the weight is and are weight divided evenly on each corner/wheel.
The best fact I can provide is a technical explanation:

For an object to pivot around an axis, the total moment of inertia of that object needs to be accelerated around that axis. The moment of inertia is proportional to the mass times the square of the distance of where the mass is located relative to the reference point

I = m x d^2

If an object is pivoted around its center of gravity, then only the natural moment of inertia of that object needs to be considered. If the object is not pivoting around its center of gravity, the mass of the object times the square of the distance of the center of gravity relative to the pivoting axis needs to be added to the natural moment of inertia.

On the vast majority of cars, only the front wheels are steered. So when a car is turning in a corner, the car actually pivots around the middle of the rear axle (not considering tire slip angle) and not around its center of gravity. Therefore, the closer the center of gravity is to the rear axle, the easier it is to pivot the car; hence the better handling dynamics.

This is a major reason why mid engine cars are so nimble, first the natural moment of inertia of the car is lower because the mass is closer to the center of gravity and second because the center of gravity is closer the pivoting point between the rear axle.

However, it is also a reason why mid engine cars can snap oversteer and are difficult to bring back. While on oversteer, the pivoting point is now in the middle of the front axle (or somehere around it) with the CG way in the back thus increasing the total moment of inertia (think 911 for an extreme example here).

Other benefits of a rearward weight bias is increased traction on acceleration for RWD cars and a more balanced weight distribution on the tires when braking as the weight shifts forward.

BTW, I have always believed that the F40 weight distribution was more in the 60/40 range…

EDIT:

Found this:
Attached Images
 

Last edited by CanAutM3; 06-13-2013 at 01:25 PM.
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      06-13-2013, 01:21 PM   #50
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Dang, put a a "not office safe disclaimer" if you are going to post porn. That F40...olala.
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      06-13-2013, 01:24 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Dang, put a a "not office safe disclaimer" if you are going to post porn. That F40...olala.
I know, the F40 has always been my ultimate dream car
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      06-13-2013, 02:22 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post

BTW, I have always believed that the F40 weight distribution was more in the 60/40 range…
Youre right, best weight distribution is something 60/40 range. Google find just bring first information F40 50:50 ratio, I learn that never trust Google find first links...Sorry for wrong information.
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      06-13-2013, 04:24 PM   #53
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Weight Distribution is more then front to back. Its where that weight is exactly located. It goes much further then corner balancing. Two car with exactly the same distribution will handle differently if the weight is over the axles or at the tips of the car. It all matters.

Either Way I hope its a I6. Hate V6's
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      06-13-2013, 04:28 PM   #54
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I put the odds for an I6 at about 90% until our V6 leak discussion was abruptly closed. Now I'm less sure...
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      06-13-2013, 04:31 PM   #55
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I just wish they would give us some information on the car. I believe the E92/93 is supposed to end production this month. It's a great car and no one is doubting that, but it is time to push the envelope and let us see what the new generation will bring. I don't doubt that some will still love the V8, hell I love the V8, but I LOVE torque and I can't wait to see the new engines output. Buying an M3 or an M4 is about obtaining a well rounded package. It's just not an engine. However, it should be able to distance itself in performance against it's competition. Otherwise why would I spend 75K for my current vehicle and 85 to 90K for the M4? Just bring it!
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      06-13-2013, 04:33 PM   #56
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I think E92 M3 is EOP in the next month while E93 continues on to October. I think we are lucky if we get something little of worth at Frankfurt but I'm not counting on it. Heck it seems like the F32 which starts production in a few weeks will be revealed at Geneva or something
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      06-13-2013, 05:00 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I think E92 M3 is EOP in the next month while E93 continues on to October. I think we are lucky if we get something little of worth at Frankfurt but I'm not counting on it. Heck it seems like the F32 which starts production in a few weeks will be revealed at Geneva or something
Yeah, it seems that the information is slowly (as in molasses in winter) trickling out. Also, I am sure you love your M3 but it sounds like you are going to go with the next generation also. I hope for more torque, lighter weight, and a better interior. Maybe I will be disappointed, but I highly doubt that. I am sure the engineer's who are making this vehicle what it will be DON'T WANT IT TO SUCK! They are aware of the reviews of the M5, the ever increasing competition (AMG, RS, ATS-V, etc.) and I am willing they are going to step up the plate. Regardless of marketing BS.
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      06-13-2013, 05:52 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I think E92 M3 is EOP in the next month while E93 continues on to October. I think we are lucky if we get something little of worth at Frankfurt but I'm not counting on it. Heck it seems like the F32 which starts production in a few weeks will be revealed at Geneva or something
You may be in for some nice surprises then
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      06-13-2013, 05:53 PM   #59
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I really doubt the F40 is 50/50. I've never heard of a mid engined car with that type of distribution save for front mid engined cars like the Corvette, SLR, SLS, etc. Ferrari's MR cars are almost always around 43/57.
Technically the S2000 is mid engine as the engine sits behind the suspension, and,it does have a 50:50, will post pics of mine on scales later if anyone actually cares. I know it's kind of cheating but figured I'd through it out
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      06-13-2013, 06:30 PM   #60
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You may be in for some nice surprises then
i hope you are right, I would love to have more time to know more about what car I'm eagerly waiting for than these poor folks waiting to order an early F32. Pleasant surprises, yes please
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      06-13-2013, 06:39 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by RMB View Post
Yeah, it seems that the information is slowly (as in molasses in winter) trickling out. Also, I am sure you love your M3 but it sounds like you are going to go with the next generation also. I hope for more torque, lighter weight, and a better interior. Maybe I will be disappointed, but I highly doubt that. I am sure the engineer's who are making this vehicle what it will be DON'T WANT IT TO SUCK! They are aware of the reviews of the M5, the ever increasing competition (AMG, RS, ATS-V, etc.) and I am willing they are going to step up the plate. Regardless of marketing BS.
I'm with you, I think it will be great. I do love everything about my car but I also like a change after a couple of years. Obviously not to something that sucks but something a bit different and still great. I think the new M3 will be just that IF and only if the steering is miles better than any of BMWs current EPS cars. I6, V6, 400 or 450 hp matters little to me now when it's going FI. It's not going to be like a screaming NA I6 or V8 anyway. I have come to terms with that.

Last edited by solstice; 06-13-2013 at 08:08 PM.
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      06-13-2013, 10:49 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
Thanks for bring it on the point, why the F8x gets an V6 !!!

The lighter you make the car with lightweight components, the harder it is to balance a long i6 with weight measures in the tail.
A compact and short V6 would be the logical solution for a balanced and perfect 50:50 weight distribution in an lightweight M3/M4, even if the V6 will also be heavier than the S65.

Just my 2 cents.
Interestingly, Kazutoshi Mizuno - the now retired chief engineer of the GT-R - stated in a presentation that once he designed the car, he calculated that the driving dynamics are optimized with a V6. He joked that when engineers design cars they first pick the engine they will drop in the bay

Also noteworthy that he broke the tradition of inline 6 engines in prior generations of the Skyline.
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      06-13-2013, 11:06 PM   #63
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The best fact I can provide is a technical explanation:
...
Excellent post.

I have posted on this BMW myth of "ideal" weight distribution many times. However, I have never captured all of the points you did. One thing remains unclear to me though and it might be a subtlety beyond basic concepts of vehicle dynamics. Something around a 60-40 weight distribution is certainly ideal for a sports or racing car. There may be some elements of handling in addition to less snap oversteer that are improved by 50-50.
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      06-14-2013, 01:13 PM   #64
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Based on the 4 series numbers today, it's between 50 and 100lbs lighter than the E92, depending on engine..
That'd put the weight of the 4 series at 3427 - 3477lbs.
I would assume that the M4 would be heavier than that, due to the wider track, but they can probably cannibalize weight from other places and of course, use more carbon fiber.

3300lbs would be nice, but at this moment, I'm thinking it'll be closer to 3500.
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      06-15-2013, 07:26 AM   #65
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Excellent post.

I have posted on this BMW myth of "ideal" weight distribution many times. However, I have never captured all of the points you did. One thing remains unclear to me though and it might be a subtlety beyond basic concepts of vehicle dynamics. Something around a 60-40 weight distribution is certainly ideal for a sports or racing car. There may be some elements of handling in addition to less snap oversteer that are improved by 50-50.
The ideal 50:50 is based on the following:
  1. A FR config car is difficult to achieve 50:50 in the first place, so about as good as it gets for a 3 box saloon/sedan
  2. For road cars driven by the general population, 50:50 is a good compromise in terms of safety (some understeer with the ability to add throttle induced oversteer) whilst being reasonably nimble, and stable under braking with weight shift forwards.
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      06-15-2013, 07:28 AM   #66
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.....................

Also noteworthy that he broke the tradition of inline 6 engines in prior generations of the Skyline.
This has nothing to do with many manufacturers going from I6 to V6. Crash legislation killed the I6.

Nissan Toyota, etc moved from I6 to V6 long before the GTR was concieved.
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