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      07-15-2013, 11:53 AM   #23
mkoesel
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I think you might be getting a bit ahead of the game, Uli. Changing any part of the unibody to composite would, in my opinion, mean looking at the whole thing holistically and reengineering it from the ground up. We have been told that the next 7 will be the first non-i BMW to take this approach.
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      07-15-2013, 11:59 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I think you might be getting a bit ahead of the game, Uli. Changing any part of the unibody to composite would, in my opinion, mean looking at the whole thing holistically and reengineering it from the ground up. We have been told that the next 7 will be the first non-i BMW to take this approach.
I think the lower scale production F8x was used as testbed for the 7er.

Last edited by Uli_HH; 07-15-2013 at 12:34 PM.
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      07-15-2013, 12:44 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
I think the lower scale production F8x was used as testbed for the 7er.
Thanks for the information Uli. All of this sounds very promising and this is a great direction for the M division to head to. Lighter weight not only will make you faster on the straights but the corners as well and will really enhance the driving experience.
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      07-15-2013, 12:50 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
I think the lower scale production F8x was used as testbed for the 7er.
That would appear to be unlikely. The F8x is clearly based on the F3x - we can see from spy shots that it is still a 3 Series derivative at its core. But the next 7 Series (G11) will be a completely new platform, and will be built around the use of carbon fiber in the body structure from the outset. Retrofitting some carbon fiber to the structure of the F3x would not necessarily be an effective way to learn about how to apply it in a clean-sheet scenario. The i3 and i8 are arguably the real test beds.
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      07-15-2013, 01:39 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
That would appear to be unlikely. The F8x is clearly based on the F3x - we can see from spy shots that it is still a 3 Series derivative at its core. But the next 7 Series (G11) will be a completely new platform, and will be built around the use of carbon fiber from in the body structure from the outset. Retrofitting some carbon fiber to the structure of the F3x would not necessarily be an effective way to learn about how to apply it in a clean-sheet scenario. The i3 and i8 are arguably the real test beds.
Who knows if the F80 (not the F30!) will not be build around the use oft some carbon composite form the outset!? Could you see the core of the car or only its outside looks?

Could also be the reason for the lable F8x.
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      07-15-2013, 01:44 PM   #28
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I read the article again and this time without being overly suspicious of potentially negative words. He does open with this:

"The philosophy will be around delivering performance through improved used of materials - lightweight alloys, lots of carbon fibre etc - rather than simply trying to make the engine more powerful"

That is a pretty strong and focused statement to make at this late stage of devolopment which includes "lots of carbon fibre". I doubt they would come out this strongly if we were to get a car weighing the same as the 335i at ~3500 lbs and close to the E90 resulting in a car that most would not be able to feel any weight difference in. That would be a fail in my books and a pretty big disappointment.

I do suspect though that aluminum will be just as large or larger part of weight reduction than CF. and don't forget plastics. Doesn't the F30 for example have a plastic oil pan? There are likely many more areas that can get this treatment.

Last edited by solstice; 07-15-2013 at 01:56 PM.
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      07-15-2013, 01:52 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
Who knows if the F80 (not the F30!) will not be build around the use oft some carbon composite form the outset!?
We've already been told from other sources that this will not be the case. And that makes good sense based on the development timeframe.
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      07-15-2013, 02:02 PM   #30
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Quote:
So when will you get to see this icon reborn? "Obviously you've seen the spy shots on the Internet, they're running around Munich," Matt says, "but I don't know exactly where they are in terms of chassis and tuning." Traditionally, the M-powered 3-Series Coupe has always appeared about a year and half after the standard car, and Matt confirms that "yes, you can use that as a good basis".
Being that the 4 series was just recently revealed, does that mean we won't see this car unveiled until the END of 2014? If so, mid-2015 would be the first deliveries, no?
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      07-15-2013, 02:18 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by bigsid05 View Post
Being that the 4 series was just recently revealed, does that mean we won't see this car unveiled until the END of 2014? If so, mid-2015 would be the first deliveries, no?
Pretty tough deal for the M3 if that's true. The F30 shape will feel pretty old to release a new model on, especially a $70k car. I think we'll be able to buy the M3 as rumored next summer. I think this article is about the M4 which they can afford to wait a bit with being that this shape is still not being delivered to customers.
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      07-15-2013, 03:06 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigsid05 View Post
Being that the 4 series was just recently revealed, does that mean we won't see this car unveiled until the END of 2014?
It will be way before that. Soon, actually.
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      07-16-2013, 12:09 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2
Of course they don't talk about the similar yearning for a high redline and power all the way to redline and disappointment in the turbo lag.
Not exactly. Disappointment in redline, yes. Turbo response is quite phenomenal actually, especially with decatted downpipes.

Biggest disappointment is weight weight weight!!! Agree M4 needs to target <3300. I'll believe it when I see it.
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      07-16-2013, 03:34 AM   #34
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Great information (rumor...). You are pessimistic on the engine but very optimistic on the weight!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
As I posted before, my information about the weight of the F8x says:
...
F82M4 - EU-Empty = 1.495kg = 3.296lbs
Let's translate that "sub 3300 lb" statement... Assuming empty means no driver, no fuel, no cargo but also means all other operating fluids present, we need to add 68kg for driver, 44 kg (16 gal, estimate) for fuel, 7 kg for "cargo" and we then have an apples to apples weight of 1614 kg or 3647 lb.

If we compare that to the quoted 1655 kg EU weight for the E92 that is a weight savings of 41 kg or about 90 lbs, fairly reasonable. Let's not get ahead of our selves saying the car is a sub 3300 pound car, this is the same trickery Porsche get's up to quoting weights.

At 3647 lb EU, it would be just about 125 lb lighter than my current E92 M3 weighed in the same fashion (with driver and with 90% fuel). That is really close to my guess of 112 lb lighter back in this post in 2010! As mentioned earlier in this thread this probably represents something like about $300 of extra COST to BMW to achieve this. I think that is a reasonable number. Also as mentioned prior $1000 in COST is certainly not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
This weight reduction is reached by:
  1. making all doors/folds out of aluminum instead of steel ( like F30 )
  2. making internal supporting structure out of industrial carbon composite instead steels ( like F30 )
  3. making some/many suspension components out of industrial carbon composite istead aluminium ( like F30 ) - (link) saving overall 35kg /77lbs. only in this part

The new engine would be al little bit heavier than the S65 V8 ... also according to my informations!
All of that is new to me. If all of those parts turned out to be CF that would be a pretty good technical achievement for the car and a respectable weight reduction program. Those part are going to be quite costly though. Perhaps the cost is offset in a less expensive motor (as compared to the the S65)...
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      07-16-2013, 06:05 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Let's translate that "sub 3300 lb" statement... Assuming empty means no driver, no fuel, no cargo but also means all other operating fluids present, we need to add 68kg for driver, 44 kg (16 gal, estimate) for fuel, 7 kg for "cargo" and we then have an apples to apples weight of 1614 kg or 3647 lb.
Nope ... 1.495kg = 3.296lbs EU (-Empty) weight meens stock car including 68kg for driver, 44 kg (16 gal, estimate) for fuel, 7 kg for "cargo" !!!
~ 160kg less than the E92M3 !
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      07-16-2013, 06:19 AM   #36
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For the engine now more than one source in germany quotes "more than 3.0ltr" as its common sence hear ... one source says 3.3ltr. aka 3.296ccm !!!

Also nearly all source in germany at this time says "6-Zylinder-Turbomotor".
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      07-16-2013, 08:35 AM   #37
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This 3.3L is interesting, why they stroked turbocharged engine? Even 3.0L power to liter ratio is low. One opinion is that 3.3l not need so much boost than 3.0L to archive same torque...or bigger displacement is "just marketing".
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      07-16-2013, 08:56 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
For the engine now more than one source in germany quotes "more than 3.0ltr" as its common sence hear ... one source says 3.3ltr. aka 3.296ccm !!!

Also nearly all source in germany at this time says "6-Zylinder-Turbomotor".
I think the engine size will be bigger than 3L if the horsepower is 450 except BMW is doing something extraordinary with the engine which seems unlikely given its price point.

911Turbo 520HP/3.8L = 139 HP/L
911Turbo S 560HP/3.8L = 147 HP/L

If the M3 is comparable to the Turbo S then 3.0L engine will give 441 HP
But if more comparable to the Turbo then 3.0 = 417 HP

However, if the engine size is 3.3 then HP will fall between 458 and 485. Whatever the engine size, I think the output per liter will be more comparable to the 911 Turbo than the Turbo S.

In conclusion
If HP is 450 then engine size is 3.3L
If engine size is 3.0L then HP is 417 HP
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      07-16-2013, 09:20 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WallieX5 View Post
I think the engine size will be bigger than 3L if the horsepower is 450 except BMW is doing something extraordinary with the engine which seems unlikely given its price point.

911Turbo 520HP/3.8L = 139 HP/L
911Turbo S 560HP/3.8L = 147 HP/L

If the M3 is comparable to the Turbo S then 3.0L engine will give 441 HP
But if more comparable to the Turbo then 3.0 = 417 HP

However, if the engine size is 3.3 then HP will fall between 458 and 485. Whatever the engine size, I think the output per liter will be more comparable to the 911 Turbo than the Turbo S.

In conclusion
If HP is 450 then engine size is 3.3L
If engine size is 3.0L then HP is 417 HP
An interesting post, but your conculsions may be a little off. Mercedes get 178 hp/l from their very affordable A45 AMG engine (2.0 giving 355bhp).

Bets for specific output per $ are off when it comes to FI, just look at 4cyl factory 400bhp Evo's (but admittedly their lag is horrific).
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      07-16-2013, 10:53 AM   #40
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Anyone know the unladen weight of the new 435i? BMW's site currently has only the GVW = 4505

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

trying to understand the "baseline" from which we can compare the M4. I don't think it's as informative to compare weight of M4 to previous M3 because of the difference in engine, wheelbase etc.

Last edited by caneaddict; 07-16-2013 at 11:46 AM.
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      07-16-2013, 11:05 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl L View Post
An interesting post, but your conculsions may be a little off. Mercedes get 178 hp/l from their very affordable A45 AMG engine (2.0 giving 355bhp).

Bets for specific output per $ are off when it comes to FI, just look at 4cyl factory 400bhp Evo's (but admittedly their lag is horrific).
Well, isn't the A45 AMG still a prototype? Here are other cars that are available in the US.

BMW M5 4.4 liter (PP) -- 575 hp (131 hp/l)
Lancer Evo X 2.0 liter -- 291 hp (146 hp/l)
Audi TT RS 2.5 -liter -- 360 hp (144 hp/l)
Nissan GT-R 3.8-liter -- 545 hp (143 hp/l)
WRX STI 2.5-liter Boxer -- 304 hp (122 hp/l)
911 GT2 RS 3.6 liter -- 620 hp (172 hp/l)
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      07-16-2013, 11:38 AM   #42
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I wouldn't be surprised if BMW have code maps for the new engine between 400 - 500 hp. I.e adding power will cost them $0. They would love if everyone were just looking for more power in the new M3. However they tried that already in the M5 and M6 and those cars are not really hailed as the best ever from M. Why? Mainly because they are heavy which impacts pretty much everything driving dynamics negatively. I think M wants something that really moves driving dynamics forward, not just limit the decay from the E90 M3. The 1M was received very well and it's foremost weapon is weight and agility. I'm feeling positive on weight but I'm not negative about the engine. It will be better than the 1M's which is good enough for me. I will not buy or reject the F80 due to it's engine but if it feels heavy, bye-bye.
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      07-16-2013, 11:38 AM   #43
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Quote:
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Well, isn't the A45 AMG still a prototype?
No. The M133 engine is real and in production.

http://www.mercedes-amg.com/engineer...?section=20l4c
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      07-16-2013, 12:15 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I will not buy or reject the F80 due to it's engine but if it feels heavy, bye-bye.
Right on the money.

For driving enthusiasts; those who enjoy the drive to the car show more than the car show itself, the M2 may end up being the more appropriate buy. I just really hope they give the M2 too much torque, just like my 1M. Fun chasis plus a ton of power = yeehaa.
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