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      07-17-2013, 10:36 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbolag View Post
Also, TE37SL 18x10.5 is 19.3 lbs...so it definitely is possible for 10lb savings on wheels, per wheel. Also all the BBS FI 8.75" are 10lbs less..
26-19=10 ???

(i.e. OEM 19" M3 rear wheel weight - TE37SL 10.5" weight = 7 lb)

Also, there is no way BMW will ship an OEM rear M3 wheel that weighs even 19 lb. So again, no, 10 lb per wheel is not possible. Perhaps technically possible with composites or something $$$, but not possible from BMW as an OEM part.
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      07-17-2013, 10:45 PM   #68
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Good lord the M4 is going to be one beautiful car.
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      07-17-2013, 10:54 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
Hate to break it to you but there are already Camaros, Vettes, and Mustangs that will trounce the new M3/M4 around a track. I don't care that we haven't seen the specs. It isn't going to touch cars like the current/next Z06 or new Z28. To be honest it will have a hell of time keeping up with just the new base C7 Vette. The new Z28 is going to murder it around a track.
Although I agree with your opening statement as very likely (not definite) I'd probably replace "trounce" by "best" simply because we can guess at a reasonable range for the new M4 lap times but the car is still a long way from production or public specs.

Similarly when it comes to the new Z28 how can you predict lap times when neither the power nor weight of either car is known? Hence again my claim that either "murder" or "best" is quite premature and speculative.
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      07-17-2013, 10:55 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Yes the Carbon seats introduced with the M3 CRT will be available to the M3/M4 - I do not know if for all markets though?

The wheels shown are the wheels for the M3 with another option available in unique design.
Finally BMW!!! Proper sport/bucket seats option for M cars from the factory

Are they going to be available for the M2 as well?
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      07-18-2013, 12:01 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
26-19=10 ???

(i.e. OEM 19" M3 rear wheel weight - TE37SL 10.5" weight = 7 lb)

Also, there is no way BMW will ship an OEM rear M3 wheel that weighs even 19 lb. So again, no, 10 lb per wheel is not possible. Perhaps technically possible with composites or something $$$, but not possible from BMW as an OEM part.
So maybe not 40 lbs but say 20 lbs just by lighter wheels and then say 50 lbs with lighter seats and you have a good start without even touching the chassi. Progress isn't made by engineers and companies being so negative and restricted by status que and thoughts like "can't be done", "not going to happen", "too expensive" etc. Progress is made by people who set goals and then make it happen. More remarkable things has been done than building a 3300 lbs car when you have the strength, knowledge and power of BMW. Germany like the US are very good at that kind of free thinking and "just do it" attitude. There are many vendors who will bend backwards to become BMW suppliers and I think BMW need the M3 to be a halo car. Maybe I have too high opinion of BMW and M, time will tell.

I'm pretty sure the same negative outlook would have been given if someone said that the E60 M5 and E90 M3 would have the engines they got before it was known. An M unique engine? V10?, V8 M3?, What redline? Not going to happen, followed by the price of similar cars and the cost involved etc. This time it's primarily about the weight not the engine and that's BMW's own statement not mine.

Last edited by solstice; 07-18-2013 at 12:50 AM.
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      07-18-2013, 12:04 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Although I agree with your opening statement as very likely (not definite) I'd probably replace "trounce" by "best" simply because we can guess at a reasonable range for the new M4 lap times but the car is still a long way from production or public specs.

Similarly when it comes to the new Z28 how can you predict lap times when neither the power nor weight of either car is known? Hence again my claim that either "murder" or "best" is quite premature and speculative.
Considering the Z28 lapped VIR in 2:52:38 I would say "murder". This car it a track beast...period.

To give you some perspective of how fast this laptime is, it’s faster than a Corvette Z06, Nissan GT-R, Lamborghini Mucielago LP670-4, Ferrari 430 Scuderia, Porsche 997 GT3 RS, Lexus LFA.
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      07-18-2013, 12:23 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
Considering the Z28 lapped VIR in 2:52:38 I would say "murder". This car it a track beast...period.

To give you some perspective of how fast this laptime is, itís faster than a Corvette Z06, Nissan GT-R, Lamborghini Mucielago LP670-4, Ferrari 430 Scuderia, Porsche 997 GT3 RS, Lexus LFA.
Z28 as in Camaro Z28 , faster around a track than a GT-R and an LFA!!??. You got my attention to say the least. Any rumours if this car will be available as a 4 door GM product? What price point are we talking about? This would be an example of ignoring what can't be done and instead just do it.
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      07-18-2013, 12:46 AM   #74
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I have no doubt that this new M3 will rock! With every spied test mule things are getting more and more exciting. However, some of the most special options might have a considerable cost. I used to be worried a little about the exhaust note, but this is worry begins to fade out. The M5 M Performance exhaust teaser also helped
I hope we'll get the ordering info before the end of the current year, at least in Europe.
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      07-18-2013, 12:50 AM   #75
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This is gonna be my next ride ! I can't wait for the sedan
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      07-18-2013, 01:53 AM   #76
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I can definitely see silver grey dials in the instrument cluster a la E46 and 1M and I can see an 8 at the lower right of the tach...I've seen the 8 on the mule clusters as well... It looks like it has the extended contents display but I can see Silverish grey
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      07-18-2013, 02:06 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
So maybe not 40 lbs but say 20 lbs just by lighter wheels
Absolutely, I'm just pointing out what really is, from any practical sense, impossible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
and then say 50 lbs with lighter seats
Also quite doubtful. The OEM seats weigh 45 lb ea. Recaro Sportster seats WITHOUT airbags come in at 33 lb ea. Thus we are likely to see about half of your quite optimistic value. Maybe 3/4 of it absolutely best case scenario including all four seats. Again the rears are quite light already...

Quote:
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Progress isn't made by engineers and companies being so negative and restricted by status que and thoughts like "can't be done", "not going to happen", "too expensive" etc. Progress is made by people who set goals and then make it happen. More remarkable things has been done than building a 3300 lbs car when you have the strength, knowledge and power of BMW. Germany like the US are very good at that kind of free thinking and "just do it" attitude. There are many vendors who will bend backwards to become BMW suppliers and I think BMW need the M3 to be a halo car. Maybe I have too high opinion of BMW and M, time will tell.

I'm pretty sure the same negative outlook would have been given if someone said that the E60 M5 and E90 M3 would have the engines they got before it was known. An M unique engine? V10?, V8 M3?, What redline? Not going to happen, followed by the price of similar cars and the cost involved etc. This time it's primarily about the weight not the engine and that's BMW's own statement not mine.
I'm a pretty big M fan and give BMW M a lot of credit for innovation, bang for the buck, delivering what the market wants and a real legacy of class dominating cars. I've owned 3 M3's myself and make very careful and calculated purchasing decisions. I don't doubt the BMW M will pull out some great weight savings trickery. But again they already did so in the E92 M3! Have you read the list of all the parts they made hollow (including even carpet fibers, IIRC) just to get to its somewhat portly weight.... As a (recovering) engineer myself with experience in design, simulation, costing, composites, etc. I just have natural and healthy skepticism that BMW can obtain a sub 3300 lb M4 when the 435i is heavier than the 335i (again in a apples to apples engine and transmission comparison). Sure they can do it, it's just that the bean counters are in much more control than it seems they've been in the past. I've posted and discussed BMW investor relations documents in the past that go on and on about "parts commonality" and "material offensives" both attacking cost.

Have a look at all of the areas I predicted BMW will be saving weight in the M4 way back in late 2010 here. Maybe my numbers were conservative maybe you can save more.

As the late Carl Sagan used to say, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". To me a sub 3330 curb weight is indeed an extraordinary claim.
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      07-18-2013, 02:06 AM   #78
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If the US gets screwed over again, I'm going to punch myself in the face. We are M's biggest market, after all, you guys need to spend the money to get stuff like this approved for sale in the US. I think we've proven over and over with the special edition E9x M3s that we will buy anything you sell here.
so true
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      07-18-2013, 02:16 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
Considering the Z28 lapped VIR in 2:52:38 I would say "murder". This car it a track beast...period.
That was the ZL1. However, to be fair the new Z28 is claimed to be faster on at least one track than the ZL1 (link), it won't be on all tracks though as it is down perhaps as much as 80 hp from the ZL1. Too bad they won't be getting with the 21 century and offering a dual clutch transmission. Note that the article mentions how this is an all out track car, way too track oriented for most drivers. From this description it sounds like a bit less of an M4 competitor than I had initially thought. A real challenge these days is providing a car that can lap fast, have good times at the drag strip, be fun and rewarding to drive and still be comfortable enough as a daily driver.
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      07-18-2013, 02:28 AM   #80
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BMW states that the CRT shaved 150 lbs off the E90 M3 just by swapping to CF in the seats and hood. That seems hard to reconcile with just a 30 lbs or so saving on the seats when they also state a 50% weight reduction with the CF hood. That would make the standard alu hood ( 150 - 30 ) x 2 = 240 lbs. Sounds heavy.

Note: According to this guy the alu hood is 22.8 lbs
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=580764

This would make the savings from the seats 150 - ( 22.8 / 2 ) lbs = 138.6 lbs. With that in mind 50 lbs sounds rather modest.

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      07-18-2013, 03:43 AM   #81
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Quote:
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BMW states that the CRT shaved 150 lbs off the E90 M3 just by swapping to CF in the seats and hood. That seems hard to reconcile with just a 30 lbs or so saving on the seats when they also state a 50% weight reduction with the CF hood. That would make the standard alu hood ( 150 - 30 ) x 2 = 240 lbs. Sounds heavy.

Note: According to this guy the alu hood is 22.8 lbs
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=580764

This would make the savings from the seats 150 - ( 22.8 / 2 ) lbs = 138.6 lbs. With that in mind 50 lbs sounds rather modest.

Ugh...
  1. BMW can't even decide (through C&D) if they saved 100 or 150 lbs in the CRT...,
    Quote:
    BMW says that, while the official weight savings is 100 pounds, if all this equipment is considered, the real savings is over 150 pounds.
    WTF does that even mean?
  2. Even more importantly, the OEM seats weigh (combined) 108 lb (the number I quoted above was only the right seat. Here is the link to that being documented. How in the hell can you save more than the parts weigh in the first place?
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      07-18-2013, 04:57 AM   #82
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Probably looking at easy 5k+ for that option.
They are ~$9000 in the M5, and that's with sliding calipers in the rear. These M3/M4 CC brakes are full 6- and 4-piston calipers front/rear...
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      07-18-2013, 07:19 AM   #83
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They are ~$9000 in the M5, and that's with sliding calipers in the rear. These M3/M4 CC brakes are full 6- and 4-piston calipers front/rear...
Ouchhhh
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      07-18-2013, 07:32 AM   #84
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Quote:
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So maybe not 40 lbs but say 20 lbs just by lighter wheels and then say 50 lbs with lighter seats and you have a good start without even touching the chassi. Progress isn't made by engineers and companies being so negative and restricted by status que and thoughts like "can't be done", "not going to happen", "too expensive" etc. Progress is made by people who set goals and then make it happen. More remarkable things has been done than building a 3300 lbs car when you have the strength, knowledge and power of BMW. Germany like the US are very good at that kind of free thinking and "just do it" attitude. There are many vendors who will bend backwards to become BMW suppliers and I think BMW need the M3 to be a halo car. Maybe I have too high opinion of BMW and M, time will tell.

I'm pretty sure the same negative outlook would have been given if someone said that the E60 M5 and E90 M3 would have the engines they got before it was known. An M unique engine? V10?, V8 M3?, What redline? Not going to happen, followed by the price of similar cars and the cost involved etc. This time it's primarily about the weight not the engine and that's BMW's own statement not mine.
Just out of curiosity, are you an engineer?

Anything is possible, but engineering is all about compromise.
-Sure you can make a car super light and use CF everywhere, but it'll make it more expensive. Thus a higher base price. Would everyone agree with that? No. Hell no actually.
- Sure you can throw on some super light wheels, but are they going to survive 100-200k miles full of pot holes? No
- Keep in mind where the M3/4 starts at. It's a big sedan/coupe, that was made into a performance version. This is not a 911 or a Suburu BRZ where they were designed from the ground up to be light and small to begin with.

Like I said, I'm all for progress, but at the same time it's not something that is free and can be just done with the snap of a finger.
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      07-18-2013, 08:18 AM   #85
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I'm probably in the minority with this one but I'm a little saddened that the F80/82 will probably not have an iDrive free option any more. Market requires it now, but I see it as a distraction.
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      07-18-2013, 09:02 AM   #86
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I'm probably in the minority with this one but I'm a little saddened that the F80/82 will probably not have an iDrive free option any more. Market requires it now, but I see it as a distraction.
I'm more upset that it won't have Nav standard since iDrive is there. I am hopeful the M3/4 comes practically loaded with what I consider basic entry luxury items that normally cost like leather, nav, heated sets, auto dimm mirros, etc. If the car based at 70-75k with all this stuff I would be happy. Then give me a package that gives me CRT seats and CCB for 10k even and I will give up my money.
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      07-18-2013, 09:49 AM   #87
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Nav and extras add weight and expense. No need for it if you plan to track
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      07-18-2013, 10:07 AM   #88
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Ugh...
  1. BMW can't even decide (through C&D) if they saved 100 or 150 lbs in the CRT...,

    WTF does that even mean?
  2. Even more importantly, the OEM seats weigh (combined) 108 lb (the number I quoted above was only the right seat. Here is the link to that being documented. How in the hell can you save more than the parts weigh in the first place?

1. BMW can decide if it's 100 lbs or 150 lbs. It's 100 lbs on the scale for the base M3 car vs the CRT car. The 150 lbs is when you consider the weight from the extras in the base CRT as for example DCT etc.

2. Well either BMW is lying or the seats are heavier than your source state. It's one of the two.

I've seen info about the front seats being +60 lbs and the rear ~45 lbs. that's a 165 lbs combined. Shaving 50 lbs from that seems more than doable with CF and BMW show what they can do by saving more than twice of that.

Last edited by solstice; 07-18-2013 at 10:53 AM.
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