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View Poll Results: What transmission will-you-get or do-you-have in your M3/M4?
6MT 1,220 53.56%
DCT 1,058 46.44%
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      11-27-2013, 08:32 AM   #67
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Call me a luddite, but I will go with the MT. You can make all of the technical comparisons/tradeoffs you want but for me it comes down to driver involvement. It's a zen thing.
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      11-27-2013, 10:57 AM   #68
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Call me a luddite, but I will go with the MT. You can make all of the technical comparisons/tradeoffs you want but for me it comes down to driver involvement. It's a zen thing.
You Luddite Buddhist...
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      11-27-2013, 11:27 AM   #69
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Going with DCT
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      12-01-2013, 12:42 AM   #70
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I think there is 10-15% of folks telling a bit of a fib here.

What is it, does MT have more "street cred". For the E92 M3 the split between MT and M-DCT in North America was almost precisely 50-50 (link). I strongly suspect it will be close to the same with the M4.

For those that really care about going the fastest possible (in a given car, of course) don't forget that a M-DCT is equivalent to at least 20 hp, perhaps as much as 40 compared to a MT. If the driver in the MT can not shift supremely fast (most of us) the number is closer to 40 hp.
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      12-01-2013, 01:38 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-m-w View Post
It eliminates parts. The germans like to reduce everything to the simplest form. Who needs a drum brake inside the rears? Electric parking brake simply engages the rear caliper with a small motor, likely the same motor as ABS and traction control.
, but anyhow...

You are missing a key point to the benefit of the separate parking drum brake. I see you track your car, so it should be useful to you. With a combined parking brake that applies the brake on the rear disc through the caliper, you cannot use the hand brake after a session on the track. The hot pad material will put some deposits on the disc that will cause brake shudder. Not so with the separate drum brake. You can use the parking brake even if the discs and pads are hot. I do it all the time and never had an issue.

You don't need an electronic parking brake to squeeze the rear calipers. Most manufacturers simply use a mechanical cable to link the lever to the caliper. Further, I am not even sure it would be legal to use the same hydraulic system for the parking/emergency brake. The whole point of the secondary brake system is to have a back up in the case of a hydraulic failure of the main braking system.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 12-01-2013 at 12:26 PM.
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      12-01-2013, 04:37 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I think there is 10-15% of folks telling a bit of a fib here.

What is it, does MT have more "street cred". For the E92 M3 the split between MT and M-DCT in North America was almost precisely 50-50 (link). I strongly suspect it will be close to the same with the M4.

For those that really care about going the fastest possible (in a given car, of course) don't forget that a M-DCT is equivalent to at least 20 hp, perhaps as much as 40 compared to a MT. If the driver in the MT can not shift supremely fast (most of us) the number is closer to 40 hp.
it has nothing to do with street cred. nor going the fastest. MT is there for your own connection to the vehicle. I just "enjoy" MT thats all
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      12-01-2013, 12:21 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
For those that really care about going the fastest possible (in a given car, of course) don't forget that a M-DCT is equivalent to at least 20 hp, perhaps as much as 40 compared to a MT. If the driver in the MT can not shift supremely fast (most of us) the number is closer to 40 hp.
I think many people are still under the impression that a manual transmission is still the best way to wrangle the most performance out of a car. For BMW, this has not been the case from the E60 M5 going forward.

For those who understand going with a 6-speed is a performance detriment yet prefer the old-school experience, the manual still makes sense.

For guys like me who put a premium on performance and like the ability to throw it into Auto-mode for traffic, you will pry the DCT out of my cold, dead hands. To me, the DCT makes me drive the car harder - I want to push it more as I enjoy those perfect downshifts.
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      12-01-2013, 12:49 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
, but anyhow...

You are missing a key point to the benefit of the separate parking drum brake. I see you track your car, so it should be useful to you. With a combined parking brake that applies the brake on the rear disc through the caliper, you cannot use the hand brake after a session on the track. The hot pad material will put some deposits on the disc that will cause brake shudder. Not so with the separate drum brake. You can use the parking brake even if the discs and pads are hot. I do it all the time and never had an issue.

You don't need an electronic parking brake to squeeze the rear calipers. Most manufacturers simply use a mechanical cable to link the lever to the caliper. Further, I am not even sure it would be legal to use the same hydraulic system for the parking/emergency brake. The whole point of the secondary brake system is to have a back up in the case of a hydraulic failure of the main braking system.
Incorrect. You'd be insane to pull the hand brake after coming off track even with a traditional drum. That whole system (wheel bearings, hub, rotors) is extremely hot coming off track. The paddock is level and there is no reason to put the brake on. Just roll into your space in 1st gear and turn off the engine - it stops without the brake.

It's not the same hydraulic system. It's an electric actuator motor on the caliper that forces the pad to engage with a clamping force.
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      12-01-2013, 12:53 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
I think many people are still under the impression that a manual transmission is still the best way to wrangle the most performance out of a car. For BMW, this has not been the case from the E60 M5 going forward.

For those who understand going with a 6-speed is a performance detriment yet prefer the old-school experience, the manual still makes sense.

For guys like me who put a premium on performance and like the ability to throw it into Auto-mode for traffic, you will pry the DCT out of my cold, dead hands. To me, the DCT makes me drive the car harder - I want to push it more as I enjoy those perfect downshifts.
+1
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      12-01-2013, 02:24 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftc120
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMB View Post
+1
You mean computer generated downshifts.
I like DCT for traffic reasons around DC and it's rapid, seamless shifts. GTI is 6 speed and that is enough in the family.

Like Porsche said, I like manuals, but I like winning/being as fast as possible more.
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      12-01-2013, 03:36 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMB View Post
Like Porsche said, I like manuals, but I like winning/being as fast as possible more.
DE champion ftw? Lol just kidding with you

I have dct in this m3 and will go 6mt again for my next car (f80 m3). IMO I like manuals with torquier cars and dct with higher revving cars. Dct is perfect for the e9x m3. The 1m for example is perfect with 6mt.

I'll also admit that I track my car and am not proficient at heel / toe downshifting. Specifically at high speed tracks in high speed braking zones. Dct makes that a lot more comfortable for me and easier for me to focus on my braking zone and turn in points.

With a torque rich turbo motor and auto matching downshifts for the track, manual for me.
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      12-01-2013, 03:50 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
DE champion ftw? Lol just kidding with you

I have dct in this m3 and will go 6mt again for my next car (f80 m3). IMO I like manuals with torquier cars and dct with higher revving cars. Dct is perfect for the e9x m3. The 1m for example is perfect with 6mt.

I'll also admit that I track my car and am not proficient at heel / toe downshifting. Specifically at high speed tracks in high speed braking zones. Dct makes that a lot more comfortable for me and easier for me to focus on my braking zone and turn in points.

With a torque rich turbo motor and auto matching downshifts for the track, manual for me.
Very good points. I really don't think you can go wrong either way. It just comes down to personal preference. I don't think I am that good of a driver, but what few autocross/track events I have done I was able to do a better job with a DCT. I think that just shows that I am again, not a very good driver. However, I loved the DSG in my S4 and loved the DCT in my E92 M3. It felt natural to order my M4 with this.

The comment about Porsche I heard when someone was interviewing an engineer about the new GT3 and only coming in PDK. It seems natural for a performance car to want to be the fastest it can possibly be, but I totally understand everyone's perspective about the manual being more gratifying and likely to not make as much of a difference with this motor vs the old high revving V8.

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      12-01-2013, 04:00 PM   #79
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if i were to get an m4, id get the manual. I have a dct right now and for my next car I'm deff searching for a manual. the dct has amazing shift speed, and the launch control is impressive, but i get really bored not shifting through gears
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      12-01-2013, 04:42 PM   #80
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MT is an essential part of the driving experience for me, I'll be getting the MT, if I don't get a manual GT3 instead.

BTW, to North America, with your high percentage of MT enthusiasts. The last bastion. I think down this way only 5-10% of new cars have MT now.
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      12-01-2013, 05:26 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basscadet
There is absolutely no way that a 70lb difference in weight between the DCT and manual can make up for the MUCH slower shifts you get with a manual.

Look, if we were talking torque converter slushbox automatics, I would agree with the 6-speed crowd. But firing off fast shifts is critical to get the most performance out of a powerplant.

Not only that, but I find DCT encourages more spirited driving on roads because it's just so effortless to act like a hooligan. And the benefits in traffic? Almost priceless.
Add me to the list of those who think the involvement of the MT would be great - but driving on Chicago expressways in rush hour traffic is the deal breaker for MT for me - DCT on my next one too!
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      12-01-2013, 05:38 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-m-w View Post
Incorrect. You'd be insane to pull the hand brake after coming off track even with a traditional drum. That whole system (wheel bearings, hub, rotors) is extremely hot coming off track. The paddock is level and there is no reason to put the brake on. Just roll into your space in 1st gear and turn off the engine - it stops without the brake.

It's not the same hydraulic system. It's an electric actuator motor on the caliper that forces the pad to engage with a clamping force.
Not hot enough to cause an issue. The drum and shoes are not used for braking during the track session, so they do not build up heat. I have done it for the last 12 years (E46 and E92 M3s) and never had any issues. And no, the paddocks are not level at every track. Sometimes, it is good to let the engine run a few minute before you shut it down, especially on very hot days.
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      12-01-2013, 06:58 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Not hot enough to cause an issue. The drum and shoes are not used for braking during the track session, so they do not build up heat. I have done it for the last 12 years (E46 and E92 M3s) and never had any issues. And no, the paddocks are not level at every track. Sometimes, it is good to let the engine run a few minute before you shut it down, especially on very hot days.
I could of sworn my e90 325i stuck when an instructor drove it and did this. You make fair points.
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      12-01-2013, 07:53 PM   #84
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The jury is out until I test drive both. I was leaning towards a manual with the e92 but after test driving both, the DCT was way more impressive. I expect the 6mt to be more impressive on the new generation, tough decision.
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      12-01-2013, 09:02 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftc120 View Post
You mean computer generated downshifts.
Only when in D mode, not in S mode. All shifts (less the ones required to prevent stalling) are human controlled.
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      12-01-2013, 09:06 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
I like manuals with torquier cars and dct with higher revving cars. Dct is perfect for the e9x m3. The 1m for example is perfect with 6mt.
Don't forget that DCT is also ideal for cars with turbos and turbo lag because the faster shifts help to keep the turbos "spooled up" and generating boost. It remains to be seen exactly how much lag the new car will have, it will probably be pretty minimal but it WILL have it...
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      12-01-2013, 09:19 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I think there is 10-15% of folks telling a bit of a fib here.

What is it, does MT have more "street cred". For the E92 M3 the split between MT and M-DCT in North America was almost precisely 50-50 (link). I strongly suspect it will be close to the same with the M4.

For those that really care about going the fastest possible (in a given car, of course) don't forget that a M-DCT is equivalent to at least 20 hp, perhaps as much as 40 compared to a MT. If the driver in the MT can not shift supremely fast (most of us) the number is closer to 40 hp.
Maybe stated a better way...

What if two M4 models were offered a MT car with (stated) 430 hp and a DCT version with a (stated) 460 hp (of course for the DCT car we would have to detune it's shift programs so that shifts took more like 0.3 - 0.4 seconds because if we didn't then we'd get double the benefit).

Which would you choose?

This really is the choice you are making. I like to feel "in control", "in touch", "involved", etc. absolutely costs you a significant amount of real effective power. I guess I already know the answer from the MT purists. That of course begs the question of how much would the delta (difference) have to be, 50 hp, 75 hp, no amount of power?

The example is a bit unrealistic as well because M-DCT is not a free option.
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      12-01-2013, 11:34 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftc120 View Post
The 1m with all the torque is ideal for 6mt, as the new m3/m4 will be. A 1m,m3, or m4 would be a waste with Dct.
Well, that's very scientific. Wouldn't an auto slush box be ideal for a bloated 2 ton boat then? How many F8x M's have you driven before you decided to pontificate about other people's choices?
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