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View Poll Results: What transmission will-you-get or do-you-have in your M3/M4?
6MT 1,218 53.59%
DCT 1,055 46.41%
Voters: 2273. You may not vote on this poll

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      12-02-2013, 01:35 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftc120 View Post
The 1m with all the torque is ideal for 6mt, as the new m3/m4 will be. A 1m,m3, or m4 would be a waste with Dct.
As pointed out above this is not a justified nor even correct position.

The primary performance (not even counting convenience nor safety) advantage from a DCT type transmission is the much reduced shift times. Those shift times savings are entirely a separate topic as to the engines power/torque characteristics. As posted prior, it is these shift time savings that are equivalent to having significantly more power.

Now you might attempt to argue that one can shift less with a high torque engine, which is generally true, thus why bother automating the shifts. I see no merit to that argument though again primarily due to the point I made just above. I suppose you could argue that you would be shifting so much less that the cost of the DCT on a "per shift" basis isn't justified. If that is your point it has some very small merit but is an incredibly odd way to make a decision on a transmission.
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      12-02-2013, 11:23 PM   #90
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Manual vs. DCT

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Maybe stated a better way...

What if two M4 models were offered a MT car with (stated) 430 hp and a DCT version with a (stated) 460 hp (of course for the DCT car we would have to detune it's shift programs so that shifts took more like 0.3 - 0.4 seconds because if we didn't then we'd get double the benefit).

Which would you choose?

This really is the choice you are making. I like to feel "in control", "in touch", "involved", etc. absolutely costs you a significant amount of real effective power. I guess I already know the answer from the MT purists. That of course begs the question of how much would the delta (difference) have to be, 50 hp, 75 hp, no amount of power?

The example is a bit unrealistic as well because M-DCT is not a free option.
Quickness is a small part of the equation to me. Though I drive spiritedly, I don't race and seldom worry about a couple tenths to 60 or 100. Part of it is undoubtedly that I've been driving manuals for nearly 50 years, except for my SUVs. The extra driver involvement and choice you have with a manual is worth it for me. Want to give the throttle a little blip? You just slip in the clutch and do it. Want to feather the throttle or smoothly slip in and out of gear in traffic? It's easy. The DCT is, however, undoubtedly superior for most performance applications. The manual is harder, but when you get it right it's very satisfying rather than just saying the computer did it.

Nice to have a choice. Oh, and the 50 or so less pounds, less complexity and $3k or so savings is icing with the manual. Just MO, and I won't say anything negative about those who feel differently.
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      12-03-2013, 07:39 PM   #91
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I have an F10 M5 in a manual. Is it a good fit for that car? Not sure, is there lag, yes. Is it fun, uh.. yeah!! So gonna have to go 6mt for the M4 once my lease is up.
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      12-04-2013, 12:44 AM   #92
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After viewing another case of BMW fucking up the Trans / throttle interface in an F10 (LCI) I have lost all faith in BMW to properly tune any auto transmission. 6MT for me.

Yes, I have driven several E9x's with DCT. Doesn't change my mind.
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      12-04-2013, 12:37 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
After viewing another case of BMW fucking up the Trans / throttle interface in an F10 (LCI) I have lost all faith in BMW to properly tune any auto transmission. 6MT for me.

Yes, I have driven several E9x's with DCT. Doesn't change my mind.
??? Can you explain?
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      12-04-2013, 01:37 PM   #94
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6MT all the way for me. I love the driver involvement of a manual.
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      12-04-2013, 03:49 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
After viewing another case of BMW fucking up the Trans / throttle interface in an F10 (LCI) I have lost all faith in BMW to properly tune any auto transmission. 6MT for me.

Yes, I have driven several E9x's with DCT. Doesn't change my mind.
+1 on the explanation.

After driving the DCTs in the currently available Ms (M3, M5 and M6) on the race track, I have to say I'm sold. You can let the car auto shift for you or you can do it yourself. Manually shifting the DCT is quite gratifying (perhaps not as much as pressing a clutch and rowing the gears). The DCT is so instantaneous, flip of a finger and you're in the next gear.

I can see the longing for the MT from a purist standpoint but the performance can't be denied with the DCT, and it is quite fun to drive.

Maybe the American muscle cars are playing to the same audience here that wants the MT since they don't even offer anything else in the GT500 and Boss? Never thought about it until just now.
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      12-04-2013, 09:36 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
??? Can you explain?
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=738530

BMW having major issues making the N55 and ZF8 play well together in the F10. Multiple reports and I personally owned a car with this very problem.
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      12-04-2013, 10:02 PM   #97
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The DCT helped to cover up the weaknesses of the E9x but that doesn't mean that it still isn't a great choice for a torquey engine, especially one that is turbocharged.

In my GT-R I could fire off 3rd-4th gear shifts that were so insanely fast that the turbos remained spooled and the acceleration was just breathtaking. There is absolutely no way I could get that kind of thrill with a manual. The power delivery is like an electric golf cart, it just keeps going and going and going and doesn't let up!
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      12-04-2013, 10:05 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
The DCT helped to cover up the weaknesses of the E9x but that doesn't mean that it still isn't a great choice for a torquey engine, especially one that is turbocharged.

In my GT-R I could fire off 3rd-4th gear shifts that were so insanely fast that the turbos remained spooled and the acceleration was just breathtaking. There is absolutely no way I could get that kind of thrill with a manual. The power delivery is like an electric golf cart, it just keeps going and going and going and doesn't let up!

You drive a GTR. The car defies all of science's definitive laws. You can't really use that beast as a comparison.
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      12-05-2013, 01:24 PM   #99
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Anecdote: My buddy's wife has a 2006 M6 that has been in the shop all year because the DCT transmission keeps getting stuck in 2nd gear and won't go into 1st.
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      12-05-2013, 03:00 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-m-w View Post
Anecdote: My buddy's wife has a 2006 M6 that has been in the shop all year because the DCT transmission keeps getting stuck in 2nd gear and won't go into 1st.
Still, a very rare and valuable car, that 2006 M6 DCT. They only made...none of them.
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      12-05-2013, 10:41 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Convicted View Post
Still, a very rare and valuable car, that 2006 M6 DCT. They only made...none of them.
Whatever year. Sorry he is not up on the production month of his wife's CPO. I'll ask him for a VIN number when (if?) it gets out of the shop.
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      12-05-2013, 10:54 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ersin View Post
I'll wait and see how much weight a DCT is over the manual. The talk is that the manual will be better than what it is in the M3 now, so if it is really good and saves lots more weight then that's what I'll probably get. But if the weight savings is not all that great (and I don't really know what would qualify as "all that great" right now) then I'll get the DCT for faster shifts and bragging rights.



I think the larger knob has the "touch" interface -- drawing out letters and numbers, swiping and pinching to zoom, etc. The smaller one is for the version without those features. I'm not totally sure but I seems there is no option for the latter on the new M3/M4.


Cheers.
I believe the latter is still available on the F30, without Nav. Depending on whether Nav is standard on the F80, the latter might still be offered.
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      12-05-2013, 11:16 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-m-w View Post
Whatever year. Sorry he is not up on the production month of his wife's CPO. I'll ask him for a VIN number when (if?) it gets out of the shop.
those were all SMG cars - that's what he was referring to. only the brand new M6's have the DCT, which is leaps and bounds ahead of the SMG transmission.
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      12-05-2013, 11:19 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-m-w View Post
Whatever year. Sorry he is not up on the production month of his wife's CPO. I'll ask him for a VIN number when (if?) it gets out of the shop.
Is it an E63 or an F13?

Most likely E63 SMG... those were far less reliable than the DCTs.
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      12-06-2013, 12:06 AM   #105
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I voted DCT since I value no brake pedal pressure loss when executing a downshift under braking and the speed at which the gears are changed. I'm all for tech that makes the car faster and easier to drive at 10/10ths.

That said, I am going to closely evaluate the transmission cooling and lubrication of the 6MT vs. DCT before ordering.

I've run into issues in my DCT Z435i where the DCT goes into a 'self preservation' program where the shifts are very slow and occur at 4000rpm. Not sure if it was due to the engine oil temp, and hopefully this will be solved by getting an 'M' car next time, with lots of radiators and air flow
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      12-06-2013, 12:25 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
I voted DCT since I value no brake pedal pressure loss when executing a downshift under braking and the speed at which the gears are changed. I'm all for tech that makes the car faster and easier to drive at w
The new m3 features rev matched downshifts on the 6mt. So rev matched downshifts while braking can be done the same as dct. While having all the benefits of 6mt fun on the street.

I'm going 6mt on this car and using the rev matching on the track and leaving it off on the street
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      12-06-2013, 03:11 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftc120 View Post
I guess if it excites you to put a sports sedan in drive and step on the gas or have a computer actually do manual shifts for you to make spirited driving less complex, then the Dct is for you.
Not so quick...

Please consider the following thought experiment. First, as I'm sure you know, when in manual "S" mode a DCT does no shifts except downshifts to prevent the car from stalling. All other upshifts and downshifts are 100% at the drivers full manual control.

Now here is the real thought experiment. Imagine a special M-DCT transmission where the pulling of the paddle operates the clutch (clutches) and the letting go of the paddle is what moves the shift mechanism. That's a bit inconsistent with the actual dual clutch functionality but that detail is really nor relevant to this point. One can easily argue that this is nearly identical to ones foot operating the clutch pedal and arm rowing the gear shift lever. Yes, smaller movements required, yes fingers only required (not an arm and a leg) and perhaps the loss of some (most unnecessary) control, but in essence it is the same thing.

Personally I prefer to have additional mental "bandwidth" dedicated to tasks that humans do better than computers such as all of the calculations and coordination to pull off perfect high speed cornering, right on the best line, right at the limit of traction.

Flailing my arm and leg around to me, not really all that exciting nor rewarding. I honestly get joy from realizing the speed, harmony and technical achievement of every single perfect DCT shift and perfect rev matched downshift as well. Sure there are some "fun" aspects to a MT, I've been raised on them since my first car and had one in every car except my current one. I've spent some time on the track with MTs as well. There is simply no going back for me.

Have you driven a M-DCT M3 (or equivalently sporty car with true DCT) at full clip, using both automatic and manual modes, in a straight line and around some curves as well?
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      12-06-2013, 03:31 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
The new m3 features rev matched downshifts on the 6mt. So rev matched downshifts while braking can be done the same as dct. While having all the benefits of 6mt fun on the street.
Gearing may not be as short and shift speed still slower with 6MT though... I hate to say it but I think the DCT is the future for all-out performance
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      12-06-2013, 10:07 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
Gearing may not be as short and shift speed still slower with 6MT though... I hate to say it but I think the DCT is the future for all-out performance
maybe it will be shorter, but that isn't really the point I was making.

you were talking about rev matched downshifts while braking without having to heel - toe, and for the first time, bmw offers this technology with the 6mt in the m3 (despite the fact it debuted in the 370z 5 years ago).

I personally prefer 6mt on the street and DCT on the track. the rev matching feature will tip the scales in the way of the 6mt for me.

yea it will probably be slower in a straight line due to shift speeds, but the in gear acceleration will be very similar and if the 6mt is derived from the unit in the 1M as the literature suggests, it will be one of the best BMW manuals offered in the M3 since the e46

I don't think gearing is nearly as relevant for this car as it was for the peaky e92 m3
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      12-07-2013, 12:55 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftc120 View Post
I really think the current poll results speak for themselves as to what drivers in the United States want.
Well that's a weak reply...

But as to the reply - I already provided some historical data showing why I think the poll numbers will not reflect the actual reality of the data.
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