09-22-2012, 10:30 AM | #331 | |
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Turbocharging successfully demands a particular set up, so perhaps the S65 just wasn't suited. For sure the N55 is designed for TC. |
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09-24-2012, 12:52 AM | #332 | |
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THE only reason for the new engine choice and for there never having been one shred of a possibility of a super or turbo charged S65 is MONEY. The common components of the N55 with the base model will drive the parts cost down tremendously. A super or turbo charged S65 would have been substantially more expensive not less.
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09-24-2012, 09:09 PM | #333 | |
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The day a Mustang or Camaro handles like an M3, I'll start to listen.
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09-25-2012, 01:44 AM | #334 | |
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Time to start listening, especially given its base price is 50% of the M3. From a pure bang for the buck, there is no denying that the Mustang is the clear winner. One test reference here from MotorTrend
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09-25-2012, 11:04 AM | #335 |
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Very true. Thing is, as long as money is not too much of an issue (and if it is, people should be putting it elsewhere than a 75k car) the overall package of an M-car cannot be beat.
Last edited by Carl L; 09-25-2012 at 11:56 AM.. Reason: typo |
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09-25-2012, 11:32 AM | #336 |
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[QUOTE=Red Bread;12701779]Having owned a Z3 M Coupe, the total production was around 6,200. I've heard that Z4 M Coupe numbers were around 5,600 total. [QUOTE]
My bad. I only had the z4 numbers through 2009, for NA. |
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09-25-2012, 12:04 PM | #337 | |
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I don't see where mid four-digit sales that never crosssed 100 a month adds up to to a worldwide sales leader. And I STILL wish I had one of each. And a Z4 M coupe. |
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09-25-2012, 12:07 PM | #338 | |
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Granted the Ford 5.0 and the GM LS engines are amazing for what they are and at the price point that they are available at, but when it comes to numbers, a if the ford Coyote/Road Runner or GM LS engines were only 4.0 litres, there would be no comparison at all. You need to compare apples to apples my friend! 25% or more displacement to make the same power don't impress me much. With all the above being said, I had a 2012 Ford Mustang 5.0 for a rental car last summer, and I was impressed by the engine! P.S.: I don't remember the GM LS engines or the ford modular engines ever winning any of the world engine of the year awards. The S65 has won it's displacement category every year since introduction!
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09-25-2012, 12:11 PM | #339 | |
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And the Camry is cheaper than all these cars, so I'm having trouble following you -- can you help a brother out here? I want to understand the point, but I feel like I'm missing something. |
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09-25-2012, 12:19 PM | #340 | |
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Please don't take my comments as arguing what people prefer. I have no idea what people prefer. For example, I prefer to have an M3 E46, M3 E92, and an M E82 all at the same time, but I choose not to. What do you prefer, an M E82 or a F30 diesel? It looks like you're in the market for the latter. If you don't want a used car, the E82 is still available in the 135is, which is only 15 horsepowers less than the M E82 and the suspension could be upgraded for a reasonable cost. Last edited by WarrantyTracker; 09-25-2012 at 12:35 PM.. |
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09-25-2012, 02:27 PM | #341 | |
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This argument is similar to a JB4 335i being similar in power to an M3. It's still not much like an M3, even if it has similar power. The 1M was not designed to be a high volume seller, unlike the M3, which provides more comfort, more body styles, more colors, more transmission choices, more just about everything else. |
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09-25-2012, 06:52 PM | #342 | |
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The increase in horsepower between the current V8 and the new N55 (414 to 440) is a mere 26 HP. Dinan, as an example, gives you more than that (without turbo's) on an S65 + a substantial torque increase. A Dinan S65 cost 25k but If BMW put a Dinan like engine into assembly line production, I bet it would add, max, 5k to the cost of the car. I'm not sure, but ,to me, the re-worked N55 is going to add that and maybe more. It just seems that some inexpensive off-the-shelf tweaks done by BMW (routinely done by tuners) to the S65 could have achieved the same power/torque performance as its evident replacement and at less cost. |
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09-26-2012, 07:23 AM | #343 | |
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I take it neither do you? .....so as we are speculating, yes a forced induction S65 would be an expensive option. As the expense of the car has a direct relationship to numbers sold, I'm sure even BMW have to work within certain budgetary frameworks. Adding a supercharger is never going to happen.... it is a wasteful technology, and counters the direction they need to go in, so we will drop that one. Now, lets consider the turbo'd S65 route..... If it were a racing car, no issues. But as it is a road car and needs to behave mild mannered at low revs too, this isn't really an option for a high revving V8 Why? the wider the rev range, the more problem you have matching turbo charger sizes. Also V8's aren't easy to TC by design as you have two seperate cylinder banks. It would be a nightmare to plump a triple turbo system onto an S65 and fit that combo into and engine bay. Forget it. Yes Mercedes are using a twin turbo (one turbo per bank) V8 in the AMG cars, but they are large 5.5liter engines and reletively low revving. Adding two turbo's per bank would just be heavy and expensive. So perhaps the option was to have: a.) A 'supposedly' de-tuned but turbo charged S65 powered M3 that cost loads. *detuned in the fact that the rev limit would be significantly lowered b.) An N55 derived turbo 6 that was more economical to run, and to produce. Option A would be slated by the true S65 fans as being Turbo charged for very little extra....as well as bitching about the new price tag. It would also not gain any favour by people expecting a more economical car within the typical M3 pricing range. Option B get applauded by many as being a more enviromentally conscious, modern M3 with a price tag in line with the rest of the 3 range. The only people not liking this option are the NA V8 fans. No contest in my mind, as both options alienate the S65 guy, and only option B gets new customers lined up with their money in hand. And before anyone says 'who cares about economy in an M3?' there are plenty of people that do. |
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09-26-2012, 07:28 AM | #344 | |
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09-26-2012, 09:45 AM | #345 | |
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I don't have time to look up the Dinan S65, but I doubt it's making making more than 400lb/ft from about 1500 rpm as the new engine most likely will or achieving more than 25 highway. I love the V8, but i refuse to discount the heavily modified 3 liter turbo until independent road testers and myself have had a chance to drive one. The 4.4TT in the M5 is towering. Last edited by Carl L; 09-26-2012 at 10:12 AM.. |
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09-26-2012, 10:16 AM | #346 | |
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I'd have to agree, in part, with Swamp on this one. I'd say there are two reasons BMW chose to use a modified N55 over a V8: cost and fuel efficiency -- at the target power level. I do also wonder how the weight of the S65 with all accessories will compare to the "S55". . . |
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09-26-2012, 05:26 PM | #347 | |
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Btw Audi already has a working electric turbo on one of their new diesel engines. Like with direct injection, BMW wont be the first to introduce an electric turbo... |
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09-26-2012, 07:04 PM | #348 |
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Interesting, thanks for sharing!
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09-27-2012, 01:26 PM | #349 |
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09-27-2012, 05:35 PM | #350 | ||
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Secondly the best speculation I have heard on the new M3 engine is 450+ hp not 440. Yes that result can be achieved with tuning of the S65. However, the new turbo I6 will be much LESS expensive than the S65, not MORE expensive. BMW gets excited about pennies and dollars of savings. Something that would add $5k (even though you have radically overestimated) would be laughed right out of the room.
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09-27-2012, 05:38 PM | #351 |
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No, it's been discussed in many places online. In this article (nearly 3 years old!) Ferrari engine designer Jean-Jacques was quoted about the comming of FI.
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09-27-2012, 09:16 PM | #352 | |
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