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10-04-2012, 11:22 PM | #111 | |
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And the folks bashing the advantages of lb-ft have not spent a lot of time on a drag strip.
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10-04-2012, 11:41 PM | #112 |
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This car does look fantastic, no doubt. I'm sure the interior will look good too. But the S65 is truly special, this will be a very tough call. The purity of the S65 vs.. the newer tech and refinement of the M4.
Regtardless it's 18 months away, I'm going to S/C my M3. I bought a JCW mini coupe to just keep the M3 pristine and lower miles. This car with an S65 S/C motor. looks and UBER power and revs! Any takers the a tuner will attempt to do just that? |
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10-04-2012, 11:48 PM | #114 |
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We'll see, but from what I've read so far I'm glad to have a S65; not much appeal in a M3/4 engine if it's basically a tuned 335. The last V8 M3 will be an icon just like the last V10 M5.
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10-05-2012, 12:41 AM | #115 | |
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F30 will have a 3.2L L6 engine, ~440-450hp for MY14 model and ~470-480hp optional power pkg start to be available for either MY15 or MY16. My friend works as an internship at BMW... Last edited by iceman335; 10-05-2012 at 12:50 AM.. |
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10-05-2012, 02:07 AM | #117 | ||
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Redline: The M3's redline is typically a bit higher than the M5. The M3's engine often follows or is in some way a relative of the M5s engine but slightly improved in some small ways. The current M5 redlines at 7200 rpm. 7500 for the new M3/4 is a very reasonable estimate. Look at the power and torque curves for the F10 M5, attached for your convenience (they are in SI units!). The curves for the new S55(?) should be fairly similar. No not identical but similar. 395 ft lb making 420 hp at ~5500 rpm is simple math, it MUST be the case, no if's and's or but's, since in US customary units: hp = tq x rpm/5252 This is an exact equation, almost a definition and is true for all engines, exactly. Plug this into MS Excel and start drawing some power and torque curves yourself! You just can't hit the stated numbers without either a very low redline and a strong tapering off of torque at about 5000 rpm or some very bizarrely shaped power or torque curves (perhaps impossible shapes...). Neither of these is a characteristic that will be typical nor desirable from a turbo charged M engine. I really don't care if a moderator posted the figures or not. It is unlikely that they have a source any better than the rest of us. Ask him to name his source. Interwebs gossipers never to, thus the veracity or even likelihood of the claim can not really be established. It is up to us to use some basic math, logic and trends to see if the numbers make sense. Again in this case they don't. I would be willing to place a large wager that the actual (not stated by BMW, since they are known to underrate) specs of the car are not at all close to 395 ft lb and 420 hp. Either the power will be higher or torque lower.
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10-05-2012, 02:12 AM | #118 |
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Not much since the existing hood on the E92 M3 is very thin lightweight aluminum with no sound insulation. However, the proper baseline is the F30 335i hood weight which will likely be steel. The total savings for each is on the order of 10 lbs, so about 20 lb total. Probably a very high price for only 20 lb savings. I think aluminum is much more likely than CF.
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10-05-2012, 02:48 AM | #119 |
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SORRY ... but I don´t beleave that the redline of the S55(?) would be higher than the S63Tü redline ... and 7.500rpm no way !!!
If they choose the V6 I think 7.500rpm redline were an good target ... but with an N55 like I6 with its long stroke and its long crank its simply too costly by materials to reach this target. I think we could be happy if they reach 7.000rpm ... and also this I don´t rally beleave. |
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10-05-2012, 03:03 AM | #120 | |
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Best regards, south
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10-05-2012, 03:39 AM | #121 | |
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Simple Marketing-Strategy to mask that in Reality they simply choose the cheapest engine and that could reach only ~420hp !!! |
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10-05-2012, 05:59 AM | #122 | |
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10-05-2012, 06:43 AM | #123 | |
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At the very MINIMUM, the next gen M3 will at least match 414hp on paper. When has BMW EVER in the history of the company come out with equal or less HP on any engine it replaces? And if it's at the minimum 414, then I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually rated at closer to 440hp. Look at what N20, N55 and S63 engines are putting down on the dyno. Would then all the people here that say +400 hp is not enough be happy (since when is 400 not enough anyway) Let's use some common sense around here.
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10-05-2012, 08:21 AM | #124 | |
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10-05-2012, 08:51 AM | #125 |
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+1
I thought the M philosophy was to have just enough torque for the weight of the car. A good example of how too much torque hurts handling in a RWD, is the C63 AMG. More torque doesnt lower ET,lap times etc.that's why you dont see a lot 335d in the 11's at the dragstrip. Look at F1 cars,they have over 700hp,geared for only 250 lb-ft or so of torque. |
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10-05-2012, 08:55 AM | #126 | |
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So far we know that current N55HP produces 330lb.ft from a low1200rpm-5000rpm. This is from a single turbo, clearly aimed at producing good low speed numbers. The fact that it produces the same torque all the way from 1200-5000rpm indicates it is torque limited. (Engine torque restricted by ECU program, not by hardware). If this restricted running mode were removed you could expect a significant increase in peak torque. Maybe 360+ft.lb???? not far off the 395 stated for M3 (albeit at lower revs), and that is with a single turbo size matched for low speed performance, plus camshafts suited for low engine speed performance. Rev limit on standard N55HP is 7000rpm - Indicates that basic engine is capable of withstanding these forces. Throw in full counter balance crank, forged conrods and lightweight pistons (Upgrades you would expect from M Power) and it is very easy to see an engine capable of at least 7,500rpm redline, plus a usable 7000rpm peak. M engine producing peak power at 5,500rpm??? Yeah right! Lastly, the N20 4 cylinder engine is effectively an N55 with 2 cylinders less (1/3 displacement less). It is quoted at producing 245hp which, add the two cylinders to make up a 3.0litre I6 is 330hp (similar to N55HP's 315hp). However the true output is said to be higher than the rated 245, some suggest in the region of 260hp, which would be more like 347hp in 3.0litre format. Anybody suggesting that the M Power team are only going to squeeze an extra 70hp out of an engine set up to produce good low rpm figures? Only 12hp per cylinder? ...........That's NUTS!!!!! On a turbo charged engine, just changing the N55 turbo to a larger unit and sticking with the same boost pressure would gain this amount with no other mods. M3 is going to have at least 2 turbo's which gives a clue that the turbo won't restrict power as much as N55. No doubt more aggressive cams in M3 to lift power peak. All of these point to significantly higher than 420hp. As for the info released being correct?.......OEM's 'leak' whatever info they want the public to hear prior to launch. I want to thank swamp2 for a very informative post.....and offer a public apology to him for coming to the wrong conclusion about his engine knowledge. SORRY dude |
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10-05-2012, 09:13 AM | #127 | |
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http://www.dinancars.com/shop/D900-3...55.aspx#page=1 Works GREAT for AutoCross
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10-05-2012, 09:18 AM | #128 | |
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10-05-2012, 09:23 AM | #129 | |
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Answer: By not making e46 sedan |
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10-05-2012, 09:26 AM | #130 | |
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Finally, as repeated ad nauseam (and not aimed at you NisFan as I liked you post), 414 in and of itself is plenty but at this price point it's an insult to not offer more power. (yes, clearly M3s are abut more than just raw power or I wouldn't be driving one yada yada yada) Last edited by Carl L; 10-05-2012 at 09:53 AM.. Reason: added nisfan for clarity |
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10-05-2012, 09:52 AM | #131 | |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N55 |
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10-05-2012, 10:11 AM | #132 | |
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Since I'm posting, I forgot to mention that the styling and weight rumors are beueno, but a 3.2tt 450bhp F82 is what will guarantee my 80k, preferably allied to the M3 name. |
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