BMW M4 and M3 Street Sounds and Our Rebuttal of the No Manual Transmission Rumor

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by hwelvaar

For christ sake, did you read the thread ?
Why don't you buy a Google car ? Their car does it all for you: steering, braking, gear shifting.
It works really well so why would anybody still want a car which you have to drive yourself ?

This is a failed argument ad absurdum. Although google appears to have made good progress on a fully automatic drive car, it absolutely hasn't made one that can even keep up a novice pace on the twisty back canyon roads or at the track. Of course we can easily imagine a thought experiment where they did have one. No, everything fully automated would surely not be fun. That does not imply in any way that DCTs aren't quite a bit of fun. Of course, cars that can do either, drive conservative or quickly on a track would be a useful feature for some people some of the time.

[Frosty]

Thanks for the dose of sanity Scott ~

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

M3 and M4 will be available with M DCT and Manual.

I wonder if these are the same clowns who said that a V8 or larger engine can be fitted into the i8? It can't.

[FogCityM3]

Sometime around 2006 or 2007, Top Gear featured a BMW 330i that was programmed to go driverless around a track and did so with Clarkson sitting in the drivers seat but not touching the wheel...looked pretty fast from what I recall (and Clarkson was scared s&itless!). Couldn't find the video due to BBC copyright but was actually used as a BMW track trainer.

Originally Posted by swamp2

This is a failed argument ad absurdum. Although google appears to have made good progress on a fully automatic drive car, it absolutely hasn't made one that can even keep up a novice pace on the twisty back canyon roads or at the track. Of course we can easily imagine a thought experiment where they did have one. No, everything fully automated would surely not be fun. That does not imply in any way that DCTs aren't quite a bit of fun. Of course, cars that can do either, drive conservative or quickly on a track would be a useful feature for some people some of the time.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I still disagree. The great thing about M-DCT is how well it masters a variety of driving styles/intensities. Use D1 for starting in 2nd gear on slick/wet/icy conditions and for the ultimate in smooth shifts. Use S4-S6 for hard power shifting MT-esque harshness. Choose any of the automatic or manual modes in between for an in between feel/performance. Of course the reason it is a jack of all trades is software. Exactly the same component that makes modern engines so good.

Agree on the nice aspect of the adjustability of the E9X DCT. I am curious to find out if BMW will dumb it down on the F8X as they did on the F1X M5/6...

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by ZIPNBYE

Seems that BMW took note of the goings-on on the Internet:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/futur...l-transmission

The DCT is an "auto" as in automated manual, but not an "automatic transmission" which includes the torque converter. R&T used the term in the right context.

Originally Posted by JasonCSU

Yes, exactly While the DCT is technically an automated manual and is completely different from a traditional torque converter automatic transmission, it can still shift its gears automatically if you want it to. The fact it can shift gears without any input from the driver makes it an automatic transmission regardless of the technology behind it.

Used as a verb, you may have a point; but as a noun, automatic transmission always includes a slushbox as part of the transmission.

It's like in IT, a PC refers to Wintel based computers and so we have PC vs. Mac debates even though a Mac is a "Personal Computer" too, regardless of the technology behind it, as you put it.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Sometime around 2006 or 2007, Top Gear featured a BMW 330i that was programmed to go driverless around a track and did so with Clarkson sitting in the drivers seat but not touching the wheel...looked pretty fast from what I recall (and Clarkson was scared s&itless!). Couldn't find the video due to BBC copyright but was actually used as a BMW track trainer.

I'm keenly interested in that esp. since it happened that long ago. Could it be that the car was more programmed to obey certain predefined commands are certain points (more reciting than "driving"). Maybe that car couldn't then do this feat on a different track with no advance human prep/programming? Keep us posted if we can watch it or learn more somewhere. Fully automated driving certainly isn't an area of any particular personal expertise.

[FogCityM3]

Yeah I recall was more "reciting" vs driving (was programmed to follow line of the Stig or another race driver IIRC)...will try to find the episode, was both interesting and funny!

Originally Posted by swamp2

I'm keenly interested in that esp. since it happened that long ago. Could it be that the car was more programmed to obey certain predefined commands are certain points (more reciting than "driving"). Maybe that car couldn't then do this feat on a different track with no advance human prep/programming? Keep us posted if we can watch it or learn more somewhere. Fully automated driving certainly isn't an area of any particular personal expertise.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Yeah I recall was more "reciting" vs driving (was programmed to follow line of the Stig or another race driver IIRC)...will try to find the episode, was both interesting and funny!

Probably a very good guess on my behalf, but also an educated guess. "Reciting" is not driving and I don't think the tech is commercially available for true track driving on an arbitrary track (again at a pace that challenges the balance and traction of the car). Of course it will be available in our lifetimes and will again bring up the classic debate of skill, pride, involvement and automation.

Do let us know if you can find the video or more information.

[FogCityM3]

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536519

http://www.snotr.com/video/729/BMW_330i_driving_itself

Originally Posted by swamp2

Probably a very good guess on my behalf, but also an educated guess. "Reciting" is not driving and I don't think the tech is commercially available for true track driving on an arbitrary track (again at a pace that challenges the balance and traction of the car). Of course it will be available in our lifetimes and will again bring up the classic debate of skill, pride, involvement and automation.

Do let us know if you can find the video or more information.

[Wajhik]

A short excerpt from a write up I did on the f10 M5 manual...

Perhaps the manual supercar is gone, which has led many driving purists into the realm of lower powered cars such as the Porsche Cayman and Subaru BRZ. Trying to argue logically is pointless, DCT drive trains are better is every respect of performance. But with technologies aside, weather its a 200hp 4 cyl or a 560hp twin turbo v8, slamming the clutch pedal, ripping the gears and feeling the raw power of these wonderful engines is and always will be the peak of the driving experience.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536519

http://www.snotr.com/video/729/BMW_330i_driving_itself

Thanks, because I see no cameras I think it is safe to say this is recital rather than driving. It also doesn't look like anything close to probing the limits of traction.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Wajhik

...weather its a 200hp 4 cyl or a 560hp twin turbo v8, slamming the clutch pedal, ripping the gears and feeling the raw power of these wonderful engines is and always will be the peak of the driving experience.

For some, of course. It's all opinion even on what is "the peak".

[MWM]

Having read thru 10 pp of this thread, I find it interesting nobody has mentioned a key reason why, for me, MT is better than DCT:

With DCT, the opportunity for company attorneys to insert themselves into the driving equation and help dictate how a car behaves rears its ugly head. I truly think that's why many paddle-shift cars have a "doggy" throttle tip-in from a dead stop in first gear -- companies are afraid somebody is going to accidentally run over their grandma in her driveway because the car "lunged" forward -- despite the fact that their right foot told the car to do so. Because of this, manufacturers have to play it safe on how the software is written in terms of feeding in the clutch from a dead stop.

Ever notice how many modern cars hold revs unnaturally after you stomp on then chop the throttle in neutral or with the clutch disengaged? Drive-by-wire throttle software is intervening to help minimize emissions from the exhaust. "Clutch by wire" also requires software which can be tuned for certain behavior.

One of the critical bits of joy for me in driving an expensive car is that I feel like it's listening very carefully to what I'm asking it to do, then just doing it. When the tip-in from a dead stop gets laggy or mushy, it ruins the experience for me. Introduces frustration and anger. With my 6MT, I have infinitely variable control (up to the limits of traction at least) over how much lunge the car has from a stop. That alone will keep me from switching for some time.

[FogCityM3]

Yes, definitely more recital however in one of the videos states, 1) there is a video camera used in conjunction w/ military grade gps accurate within 5 cm used as inputs for data; 2) unlike n-ring hockenheim looks live very aggressive Robo driving (also autoweek article, engineers also said car could be programmed to match the mid-150s time if they 'pushed it' on the prog front which matches the racing driver's time). Pretty impressive considering when this was all done.

Originally Posted by swamp2

Thanks, because I see no cameras I think it is safe to say this is recital rather than driving. It also doesn't look like anything close to probing the limits of traction.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by MWM

Having read thru 10 pp of this thread, I find it interesting nobody has mentioned a key reason why, for me, MT is better than DCT:

With DCT, the opportunity for company attorneys to insert themselves into the driving equation and help dictate how a car behaves rears its ugly head. I truly think that's why many paddle-shift cars have a "doggy" throttle tip-in from a dead stop in first gear -- companies are afraid somebody is going to accidentally run over their grandma in her driveway because the car "lunged" forward -- despite the fact that their right foot told the car to do so. Because of this, manufacturers have to play it safe on how the software is written in terms of feeding in the clutch from a dead stop.

Ever notice how many modern cars hold revs unnaturally after you stomp on then chop the throttle in neutral or with the clutch disengaged? Drive-by-wire throttle software is intervening to help minimize emissions from the exhaust. "Clutch by wire" also requires software which can be tuned for certain behavior.

One of the critical bits of joy for me in driving an expensive car is that I feel like it's listening very carefully to what I'm asking it to do, then just doing it. When the tip-in from a dead stop gets laggy or mushy, it ruins the experience for me. Introduces frustration and anger. With my 6MT, I have infinitely variable control (up to the limits of traction at least) over how much lunge the car has from a stop. That alone will keep me from switching for some time.

Very true. I hate the infamous and annoying 0.25 to 0.5 second lag in virtually all automated transmissions.