02-16-2014, 06:39 AM | #23 |
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One of the key characteristics of all M3s has been instantaneous throttle response - I am convinced that the S55 will be one of if not the most responsive turbo motors ever.
This is BWWs most important car, it encapsulates the essence of BMW- I have faith that the engineers have come good on the key concerns we all have regarding throttle response , steering etc. I believe far more time and effort will have been invested in these areas than even the M5/6.
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02-16-2014, 09:10 AM | #24 | |
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02-16-2014, 09:27 AM | #25 | ||
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02-16-2014, 10:20 AM | #26 | ||
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This is why so many reviewers have said it doesn't really feel like a turbo engine. Expect the S55 to be even better And on the subject of people not used to drive the F10 M5; One of those complaining about lag in the M5 also felt there was no need to go above 5500rpm as there was nothing to gain in acceleration by doing that... Apparently he shifted at around 5500rpm and thought that was the best way to extract maximum acceleration from the car... The M5 is still plenty fast doing that, but you definitely aren't getting the most out of the car. And by shortshifting at 5500rpm, the torque at the wheels decreases compared to what you would have at 7000rpm if you stayed in the same gear. As long as torque at the wheels are higher staying in the same gear, there is nothing to gain by shifting to a higher gear. You don't want to shift before torque at the wheels in the gear you are in are equal to what the next gear will give you. Some just look at the torque curve of the engine and thinks that since in the F10 M5/F8X M3/4 it falls off from around 5500rpm, that's when you should change up. But changing up reduces torque multiplication through the transmission and thus decreasing acceleration compared to staying in the same gear, until the torque at the wheels numbers cross. |
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02-16-2014, 10:42 AM | #27 | |
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But I also know who I am replying to and I know you've never ever made a mistake in your whole life, so I don't expect you to acknowledge that now. |
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02-16-2014, 11:27 AM | #28 | |
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I've owned multiple turbocharged cars in my life, each next had much less appreciable turbo lag than the previous one. So much less so that my N54 has "nearly" no lag compared to the previous. But it still has turbo lag. It's all a matter of perspective and what type of engine response you are acclimatized to. |
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02-16-2014, 11:27 AM | #29 | ||
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M5 turbo lag is very minimal. If you're expecting it to be like an M3 then I understand the feeling.
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02-16-2014, 11:48 AM | #30 | ||
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I have made many mistakes. and also here on the forums I have been wrong As elitex says below, I also know what turbo lag feels like. I own a 1988 Ford Sierra Cosworth which has a 2l, 8:1CR, 1bar boost engine at 270-300hp. That engine HAS lag and it's wait for it, wait for it, THERE it comes all at once! Good fun to drive, but hopeless on a twisty track as it's hard work to keep the engine on boost As I said above, a turbo engine will NOT be like a good high performance NA engine. There is bound to be a delay, but there is a difference between a 1-2sec delay and a 0,2-0,5s delay. It's not as if boost builds slowly in Sports mode in the M5 and takes a few seconds to go from 0 boost to max boost. Yes, there is a delay (as there will be in any turbo engine) but when it takes less than 0,5s to build full boost then that isn't all that bad IMHO So, I'm not sure where you and I differ. We both agree that a turbo engine is bound to have a minimum of lag. And everyone I know of (including people like Chris Harris) also agrees that the M5 is in a elite group of very few turbo cars when it comes to throttle response. I even made a point of saying that a turbo engine won't be as responsive as a NA engine, just to avoid being accused of saying that the M5 is as responsive as such an engine... But apparently I wasn't clear enough I have driven the F10 M5 on the autobahn (and on normal street roads) to over 250km/h if that counts, with multiple accelerations and passes Quote:
The M5 is also two different beasts in this regard when it's in normal mode and in Sports mode. And in Normal mode, even my NA N53B30 feels like it has lag. It's not lag obviously, just a "lazy" throttle setting in the fly by wire throttle. The throttle isn't connected via mechanical linkage anymore, so in Normal mode there seems to be a delay between accelerator pedal input and actual throttle valve movement. That disappears in Sport mode and the engine feels much more responsive, in fact it doesn't just feel more responsive. It is more responsive since the throttle valve responds quicker to gas pedal input Lag and lazy throttle can often be confused. Last edited by Boss330; 02-16-2014 at 11:57 AM.. |
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02-16-2014, 04:58 PM | #31 |
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You guys are comparing a larger displacement v8 to a smaller i6... Now maybe Boss can chime in with the actual turbo sizes for each motor, but the fact that the m5 makes 127 hp/liter and the m3 143 hp/liter, Im going to predict that you will have more lag in an m3.
Also, auto transmissions (DCTs etc) with good programing are going to do a lot to hide turbo lag from a non discerning driver. Take any turbo car with a manual and step on the gas from low rpms - you will experience turbo lag, and you will learn where that turbo(s) begins to spool. Turbo lag is just a part of the nature of forced induction (sans twin-screw), and perhaps some one would like to post a compressor map and go into further detail. |
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02-16-2014, 05:49 PM | #32 |
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This thread like others is why I will be able to retire early as a BMW Mechanic with all the time I spend here.
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02-16-2014, 06:38 PM | #33 | |
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The car does have good power off boost. I mean, it is a 4.4 liter V8 after all. But to say there's no lag is a fallacy. |
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02-16-2014, 09:08 PM | #34 | |
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Absolutely correct. |
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02-16-2014, 09:55 PM | #35 | |
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02-16-2014, 11:10 PM | #36 | |
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I've not heard that is uses a system similar to the one in the upcomming S55. Can you provide a reference? Is there a description of the way the system works? To me this is somewhat negative for the S55 if the S63Tu already has a similar system and clearly exhbits some lag. Now surely the system can and likely will be improved but it just isn't the true "lag elimination" device many are hopeful for.
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02-16-2014, 11:50 PM | #37 |
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02-17-2014, 02:37 AM | #38 | ||
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The info on the anti lag measures was in my post on page 1 and was taken from the info when the F10 M5 was released: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...69&postcount=7 Software/mapping: Now, both the S63 and S55 will use some sort of mapping to aid spool up and keep the turbos "pre tensioned" in Sport modes. How much more advanced that is on the S55 compared to the S63, I do not know. But here is how BMW explains how it works on the S63Tu: Quote:
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=588858 |
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02-17-2014, 11:56 AM | #39 |
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I sure hope the system on the S55 is superior to that on both the M5 and the 1M. I did not know the 1M had this type of system. Both cars have distinctly noticeable lag. The 1M from both my personal experience and journalists, the M5 from forum members and journalists (no personal experience).
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02-17-2014, 12:26 PM | #40 | |
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02-17-2014, 12:55 PM | #41 | |
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02-17-2014, 02:57 PM | #42 |
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02-17-2014, 03:06 PM | #43 |
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02-17-2014, 03:21 PM | #44 |
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I think this the statement to close out this thread with, and your first sentence is likely true for any turbo engine.
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