HEX Tuning - PORT FLASHING & User Controlled MAP SWITCHING

[VF-Engineering]

Originally Posted by packetpilot

Is the ZCP tune bit-for-bit BMW's swfl? This is being asked from someone who wants that to be the case, that is.

It's not bit-for-bit for obvious (and maybe not-so-obvious) reasons.

That being said, it filled the void for a product between our Stock and
Stage ONE power levels, and we were able to extrapolate the necessary
data in order to achieve the desired goal.

Originally Posted by packetpilot

Also, would you be able to ensure that customers who are addicted to staying on the latest ISTEP (carried out themselves) to be able to either carry on with upgrades, or run the relevant swfl file(s) through some conversion tool as an ingestion avenue toward your own software, themselves at home?

Unfortunately that's just not an option at this point.

In order to do so, we'd need to be creating file variations at the same
rate as BMW, and applying those changes to all of our various software
levels regardless of whether they have inherent value or not.

[packetpilot]

Can you comment on what, if anything, other than crypto, is modified from ZCP? Are all the tables equivalent at least?

[VF-Engineering]

Originally Posted by packetpilot

Can you comment on what, if anything, other than crypto, is modified from ZCP? Are all the tables equivalent at least?

Back Story: When we initially released our first software options for the BMW (F8X)
almost 2 years ago now, we focused primarily on power delivery and drivability.
When we announced our "Official HEX Tuning Re-Release" (click link to jump) in May of
last year it was to apply many of the things we learned from the factory ZCP/GTS
cars along with the Features Pack which made our software unique.

As for your specific question, all of the relevant tables for matching the ZCP level
power are accounted for and the equivalent calibrations are applied where necessary.

As I'm sure you can imagine, that's quite a heavy task in both time and expertise,
so we probably won't comment any further than that.

[alz0rz]

I can vouch for not just the modest (but noticeable) power bump but the smoother power delivery and authentic GTS-style features that the VF ZCP tune offers.

[packetpilot]

Thanks. One last question: are features individually configurable? e.g. I'd prefer no burbles, or burbles only in Sport+.

Is that an option, and is it user-configurable at the level of the flashing software?

Or is that more customizability than is (currently) on offer?

[alz0rz]

Originally Posted by packetpilot

Thanks. One last question: are features individually configurable? e.g. I'd prefer no burbles, or burbles only in Sport+.

Is that an option, and is it user-configurable at the level of the flashing software?

Or is that more customizability than is (currently) on offer?

That's a limitation of their offering. I do not believe they are offering any way to customize their OTS maps. The overrun is only present in Sport and Sport+.

[momo3605]

Originally Posted by packetpilot

Thanks. One last question: are features individually configurable? e.g. I'd prefer no burbles, or burbles only in Sport+.

Is that an option, and is it user-configurable at the level of the flashing software?

Or is that more customizability than is (currently) on offer?

Its already that way. No burbles in efficient mode. Medium burbles in sport. And the most in sport+. But there's no configuration beyond that.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

whats price difference between zcp and features only...

[Glowin]

Originally Posted by packetpilot

Also, would you be able to ensure that customers who are addicted to staying on the latest ISTEP (carried out themselves) to be able to either carry on with upgrades, or run the relevant swfl file(s) through some conversion tool as an ingestion avenue toward your own software, themselves at home?

Originally Posted by VF-Engineering

Unfortunately that's just not an option at this point.

In order to do so, we'd need to be creating file variations at the same
rate as BMW, and applying those changes to all of our various software
levels regardless of whether they have inherent value or not.

ONE - Please excuse my ignorance, but are you guys talking about if a dealer flashes your car's software? I'm curious, in such a scenario, does the tune get overwritten, and would it need to be flashed again?


TWO - When going to a dealer, I assume that it is advised to switch back to the Stock map, but even with that, is there anything that can show up in their computers showing you are tuned? Or that the ECU has been unlocked?


THREE - I've been around the E9x platform since almost the beginning, and have had both a piggyback on my car, and then moved on to being Cobb 2+ tuned.

I recall how BMW eventually coded into the ECU's hidden codes to go off based on certain parameters being exceeded, that would hint at the car being tuned, and hence flagging the customer's car for warranty purposes. And then the tuners figured out ways of not triggering those codes.

What is the situation with these cars? I mean, are there codes being triggered and being suppressed, or no one has yet seen any being triggered?

[packetpilot]

Originally Posted by Glowin

ONE - Please excuse my ignorance, but are you guys talking about if a dealer flashes your car's software? I'm curious, in such a scenario, does the tune get overwritten, and would it need to be flashed again?


TWO - When going to a dealer, I assume that it is advised to switch back to the Stock map, but even with that, is there anything that can show up in their computers showing you are tuned? Or that the ECU has been unlocked?


THREE - I've been around the E9x platform since almost the beginning, and have had both a piggyback on my car, and then moved on to being Cobb 2+ tuned.

I recall how BMW eventually coded into the ECU's hidden codes to go off based on certain parameters being exceeded, that would hint at the car being tuned, and hence flagging the customer's car for warranty purposes. And then the tuners figured out ways of not triggering those codes.

What is the situation with these cars? I mean, are there codes being triggered and being suppressed, or no one has yet seen any being triggered?

Speaking as someone who's not a customer of *any* bench-flash at present...

One: It's my understanding that it's advised to NOT let a dealer update your software(/I-STEP). Since crypto data is swapped out, and not simply added in some non-destructive way (from what I understand anyway), there's a high likelihood that a dealership may not even be *able* to update your DME, without first either replacing it with a virgin one, or carrying out the steps to virginize it. (You'd have to pay out-of-pocket for either, since this isn't simply some warranty-able problem.)

Two: Yes, there are codes that do show up; I've seen them myself on customers' and friends' cars. I'll abstain from going into greater detail than that.

Three: well beyond my scope, but I can say that there are various "tiers" of "hidden" codes, e.g. codes that only show up in ISTA (diagnostic software in use by shops during all service visits), as well as information (not necessarily 'codes' per se) that reside in FASTA data, and are transferred via ISTA once the "vehicle test" routine is carried out (the first routine that ISTA performs upon connecting to a vehicle).

Again, I'm not a "professional" but rather some guy who enjoys using google.

[Glowin]

Originally Posted by packetpilot

Speaking as someone who's not a customer of *any* bench-flash at present...

One: It's my understanding that it's advised to NOT let a dealer update your software(/I-STEP). Since crypto data is swapped out, and not simply added in some non-destructive way (from what I understand anyway), there's a high likelihood that a dealership may not even be *able* to update your DME, without first either replacing it with a virgin one, or carrying out the steps to virginize it. (You'd have to pay out-of-pocket for either, since this isn't simply some warranty-able problem.)

Two: Yes, there are codes that do show up; I've seen them myself on customers' and friends' cars. I'll abstain from going into greater detail than that.

Three: well beyond my scope, but I can say that there are various "tiers" of "hidden" codes, e.g. codes that only show up in ISTA (diagnostic software in use by shops during all service visits), as well as information (not necessarily 'codes' per se) that reside in FASTA data, and are transferred via ISTA once the "vehicle test" routine is carried out (the first routine that ISTA performs upon connecting to a vehicle).

Again, I'm not a "professional" but rather some guy who enjoys using google.

Thanks for chiming in. I think tuners should be transparent with this stuff and come right out and deal with it in their FAQ's, since it's going to be one of the key concerns for people in warranty, and then they can make an informed decision as to the cost/benefit, and how much risk they're willing to take, if it ever comes down to having a warranty issue.

We knew that stuff pretty clearly back in the E9x platform days, and everyone made their own decision as to the type of tune they got, and what they did when going in for service. Some didn't bother removing their piggybacks when going in, some like me, were super careful and did so even for an oil change to take zero chances.

I've had my car flashed by the dealer over the years when I wasn't expecting it, so I would always uninstall my Cobb tune to be safe. That is kind of scary that should they flash your car, issues can come up. Notes aren't always reviewed, and a tech can easily miss that note. Plus, intentionally telling them not to ever flash your car without permission to me is the biggest red flag. So I guess at that point, I might as well just be up front and tell them that I've got a tune on the car... Bummer.

This isn't the place to ask maybe, but any ideas if codes pop up with piggys too?

[packetpilot]

Originally Posted by Glowin

intentionally telling them not to ever flash your car without permission to me is the biggest red flag.

I've told them during service that they could wholly omit ISTA (which I'd imagine they wouldn't do, since it's used for the CBS Reset routine), or at least ignore its errors (since I have an iDrive that screams about incomplete/corrupt map data, which I cited as my own doing). Didn't faze them.

Originally Posted by Glowin

This isn't the place to ask maybe, but any ideas if codes pop up with piggys too?

Implausibility codes may surface, from what I understand. I don't know if this triggers the Tamper Protection code (oh, is that what TPROT stands for in the Infineon dev tools?) but I'd wager it doesn't, and rather triggers implausibility resultant from "Computer says boost is this (altered) value, and that doesn't jive with this other sensor's (unaltered) value."

As I type, my Dinantronics (sorry, I refuse to use all caps) Stage 3 and FMIC are being bolted up, so I'll have more first-hand "market research" (hope future auditors can find this post!) information available shortly.

As for what to do with my "other" DME though... well, I'm working on a few things. ;-)

[Glowin]

Originally Posted by packetpilot

I've told them during service that they could wholly omit ISTA (which I'd imagine they wouldn't do, since it's used for the CBS Reset routine), or at least ignore its errors (since I have an iDrive that screams about incomplete/corrupt map data, which I cited as my own doing). Didn't faze them.

As an advisor, it's a bit of a red flag IMO when someone asks not to flash their car... You might have a valid reason, but it would be odd for sure, and beg the question why...

My main point is that mistakes can easily happen, if a tech doesn't read the notes on file, and let's say, goes ahead and flashed the car with the newest software. THAT is what I'd be worried about, and getting into an expensive mess / argument...

Have the tuners actually come out and said what would happen if your car gets flashed again when it's tuned? They must know...

[VF-Engineering]

Originally Posted by Glowin

Thanks for chiming in. I think tuners should be transparent with this stuff and come right out and deal with it in their FAQ's, since it's going to be one of the key concerns for people in warranty, and then they can make an informed decision as to the cost/benefit, and how much risk they're willing to take, if it ever comes down to having a warranty issue.

For the record:
We've been fully transparent about this issue since very early on, as we intentionally
made no claims as to the effect that using our software will have on your warranty.

It is the customers responsibility to make an informed decision, and we have been
clear that our port switching capabilities are a convenience feature and not meant to
"hide" our software from BMW.

LINK: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...&postcount=309

(I'm sure it was discussed even earlier than this, but I think this example is pretty clear)

[VF-Engineering]

Originally Posted by Glowin

Have the tuners actually come out and said what would happen if your car gets flashed again when it's tuned? They must know...

Yes, we have on multiple occasions as well...

If the service department were to inadvertently (or even intentionally) update an
unlocked ECU, regardless of whether it's in "stock" or performance tuned mode,
it will result in an ECU Tamper Code.

I can only speak on behalf of HEX Tuning, but we have seen nothing that suggests
this would not be the case for any and all "unlocked" ECU's, regardless of tuning brand.

That being said, we do have a re-lock protocol that we have been using to permanently
return ECU's back to stock when it's time to sell a car, return a lease, etc... and that
can be done without triggering the tamper code.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by VF-Engineering

Yes, we have on multiple occasions as well...

If the service department were to inadvertently (or even intentionally) update an
unlocked ECU, regardless of whether it's in "stock" or performance tuned mode,
it will result in an ECU Tamper Code.

I can only speak on behalf of HEX Tuning, but we have seen nothing that suggests
this would not be the case for any and all "unlocked" ECU's, regardless of tuning brand.

That being said, we do have a re-lock protocol that we have been using to permanently
return ECU's back to stock when it's time to sell a car, return a lease, etc... and that
can be done without triggering the tamper code.

This is the 1st time I've see the re-lock protocol mentioned. What is required to do this? Removal of the ECU?

[VF-Engineering]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

This is the 1st time I've see the re-lock protocol mentioned. What is required to do this? Removal of the ECU?

It's an in-car process, and the car has to be present at a
Certified HEX Tuning Installer. (no ECU removal)

There is a nominal fee for this service that will be based
on each dealers own labor rates.

Estimated time is roughly an hour to hour and a half, and
customers do need to be aware that if they do wish to ever
re-flash that same vehicle, the ECU will then need to be
removed and unlocked again from scratch.

[Glowin]

Originally Posted by VF-Engineering

For the record:
We've been fully transparent about this issue since very early on, as we intentionally made no claims as to the effect that using our software will have on your warranty.

It is the customers responsibility to make an informed decision, and we have been clear that our port switching capabilities are a convenience feature and not meant to "hide" our software from BMW.

LINK: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...&postcount=309

(I'm sure it was discussed even earlier than this, but I think this example is pretty clear)

Thanks for chiming in. I don't think you properly read my original post, or packetpilot's response to mine, which I was quoting.

The main question I was asking - which relates to a potential warranty claim, but is not the main issue I was inquiring about - what WHAT happens, if a tuned DME is flashed? The poster replying said it can cause issues like it getting bricked I understood.

That is what I was asking about whether you guys are clear in your literature - which you've not clearly addressed in your reply. The link you pasted also only deals with warranty issues.

Or am I to understand that if that happens, the worst thing that occurs, is that an ECU Tamper Code gets registered? Can you please clearly answer this?


Secondly, the ECU Tamper Code you say gets registered if they try to flash the ECU. My 2nd question though was whether after being tuned, thru regular scanning of the car (and NOT when flashing it), codes are triggered or not, and their scans pick them up? So if you go in for a regular service visit, if the scan will pick anything up.

For example, on the E9x platform, these codes used to be triggered, until the tuners learned to stop them:

2AAF Fuel Pump Plausibility
2D25 Mass Air Flow Excessive - External Tuning Box Detected
2D18 Manipulation cover, max. air mass - External Tuning Box Detected

Is my question now more clear?


As an aside, as anyone who's been modding for years knows, from a practical point of view, it's nice not to have to go in with a disadvantage -I mean the case stacked against you in advance - because they know you are tuned, and any and everything that goes wrong, they too easily blame the tune. TONS of stories like that litter the forums.

[///M ARMY]

not able to tune 100% E85?

[VF-Engineering]

Originally Posted by ///M ARMY

not able to tune 100% E85?

Based on our testing, that's not going to be possible on the factory
fuel system. There are a couple products currently in testing by
other manufacturers, and we have already started some of our own
independent testing, so I'm inclined to say it's just a matter of time.

[VF-Engineering]

Just thought we'd end the week with a little behind the scenes video clip.

We often get asked "why is your HEX Tuning Software more expensive than
__brand X__". The answer runs deep on multiple levels, but the truth is that
we are not that much more expensive than products that are truly comparable
by power level, features, ease of install and MAP switching, etc...

The minor difference in price comes down to factors behind the scenes that
many customers never fully get the opportunity to appreciate. The final
product you feel once it's installed on your car is only made possible by the
level of detail and attention that goes into the R&D, Testing, Flashing
Equipment, Dealer Training & Support, all prior to you even making your
appointment.

The devil is in the details. And true customer satisfaction is often shared with
less exuberance than dissatisfaction. What you don't see or hear about is
often just as telling than what you do!