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      12-04-2017, 06:47 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by hi_officer View Post
oh is that the narrative now?

Look at any track day sign up sheet and you will see who really drives their cars
Just about everything but GT3s at my track day events. I've seen 1 in the last 5 years of tracking. Anecdotal of course but I think once people spend $180k on a track day special, or their 997 RS jumps to $200k in value, they suddenly realize they don't want to track it.
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      12-04-2017, 07:05 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Rambler View Post
Just about everything but GT3s at my track day events. I've seen 1 in the last 5 years of tracking. Anecdotal of course but I think once people spend $180k on a track day special, or their 997 RS jumps to $200k in value, they suddenly realize they don't want to track it.
Not my experience (again anecdotal). MSR, COTA, Eagles usually have a good showing of 997/991 gt3s. GT3 RSs are a bit more rare, though.

Back to my originally question though, 'hypothetically' which is the better buy? lol

By the way, there's a whole thread on "How many miles in your M4 GTS?". Based on the responses there, I don't think GT3s are driven any less than GTSs.
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      12-04-2017, 09:36 PM   #157
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1. The GTS was way too expensive
2. The looks were very polarizing
3. It wasn't that much faster
4. The reviews were terrible
5. It's a poor proposition for a track car . . . track guys want high-revving NA engines, not super turbo hybrid acid cooling gimmicks.

Basically, There's no compelling reason AT ALL unless you're a hardcore M fanatic. A $150,000 M3 is like Ford trying to sell a $100,000 Mustang. You'll have some hardcore Ford guys snatch them up at first, but nobody else will want them unless they are actually competitive with $100,000 cars.
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      12-04-2017, 11:01 PM   #158
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Just about everything but GT3s at my track day events. I've seen 1 in the last 5 years of tracking. Anecdotal of course but I think once people spend $180k on a track day special, or their 997 RS jumps to $200k in value, they suddenly realize they don't want to track it.
Not sure what track days your attending but in Florida for example, loads of GT3s and GT4s are tracked all the time.
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      12-04-2017, 11:11 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
1. The GTS was way too expensive
2. The looks were very polarizing
3. It wasn't that much faster
4. The reviews were terrible
5. It's a poor proposition for a track car . . . track guys want high-revving NA engines, not super turbo hybrid acid cooling gimmicks.

Basically, There's no compelling reason AT ALL unless you're a hardcore M fanatic. A $150,000 M3 is like Ford trying to sell a $100,000 Mustang. You'll have some hardcore Ford guys snatch them up at first, but nobody else will want them unless they are actually competitive with $100,000 cars.
I agree completely the car was too expensive for what it is. I think the worst thing from a marketing perspective was to price it at twice what an M3 costs. The looks where subjective. Its only a couple tenths quicker in a straight line at best. The review's where what gets me. Why where they so bad? Its hard for me to believe that they where set up incorrectly but anything's possible. I have driven many race cars over the years. Get the alignment wrong and its miserable. Is it a poor track car? The reviews would confirm this. I cant help but wonder with the right set up what it would be like. Cant say I've seen one at the track yet.
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      12-05-2017, 12:06 AM   #160
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This review is not only entertaining, but with many truths to it

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      12-05-2017, 12:27 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Sparco View Post
Not sure what track days your attending but in Florida for example, loads of GT3s and GT4s are tracked all the time.
In the northeast, I just havenít seen them. I see all other 911 and Cayman models, and just about all other performance makes but sadly only 1 GT3 in recent years. Believe me, would love to see more of them, itís just my experience.
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      12-05-2017, 12:56 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparco View Post
I agree completely the car was too expensive for what it is. I think the worst thing from a marketing perspective was to price it at twice what an M3 costs. The looks where subjective. Its only a couple tenths quicker in a straight line at best. The review's where what gets me. Why where they so bad? Its hard for me to believe that they where set up incorrectly but anything's possible. I have driven many race cars over the years. Get the alignment wrong and its miserable. Is it a poor track car? The reviews would confirm this. I cant help but wonder with the right set up what it would be like. Cant say I've seen one at the track yet.
With the CS base price around $97k, once you option that out, that'll be anywhere between 105-120k. So I'm not sure how that's a justifiable price as well. That's just my opinion though...
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      12-05-2017, 01:29 AM   #163
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler View Post
Just about everything but GT3s at my track day events. I've seen 1 in the last 5 years of tracking. Anecdotal of course but I think once people spend $180k on a track day special, or their 997 RS jumps to $200k in value, they suddenly realize they don't want to track it.
Not sure what track days your attending but in Florida for example, loads of GT3s and GT4s are tracked all the time.
I see several GT3's (3-5) at every track day I attend and 1 GTS every 3-5 track days, of that (maybe they're still in the show rooms.....lol). I'm sure there are regional differences. Here they are "common" at track days. So the GTS could be considered exclusive in that regard around here.
I will also say (again) that on they track, in the real world, they are definitely comparable.
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      12-13-2017, 03:25 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by hi_officer View Post
3 @ <$100k! One at $97k. It's getting ridiculous!

https://www.cars.com/for-sale/search...23989&zc=75034
All three still available. So much for CS pricing helping GTS values. That one at Main Line has been on there for months, with many price drops. I'd expect more GTS's to pop up under $100k, especially during the winter.
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      12-14-2017, 08:58 PM   #165
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Lol I wonder if that guy who was trying to sell his for MSRP in the classifieds finally traded it in?
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      12-14-2017, 11:12 PM   #166
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It was an overpriced M4, unfortunately.
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      12-15-2017, 12:46 AM   #167
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This is a trick question because GT3 owners don't drive them. They garage them to save miles and preserve the condition for the next owner.
Horse sh*t. Tons of GT3 owners drive and track our cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler View Post
Anecdotal of course but I think once people spend $180k on a track day special, or their 997 RS jumps to $200k in value, they suddenly realize they don't want to track it.
More horse sh*t. You must go to the only track in the country without GT3 drivers.
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      12-15-2017, 04:32 PM   #168
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Overpriced

This car was not overpriced. A drive through the canyons will prove the value. A loaded M4 is in the high 90s. It is misunderstood because of some bad reviews in the U.S. It is not a car for everyone or everyday. It was unfortunate that BMW produced too many of them. I definitely feel screwed.
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      12-15-2017, 05:45 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Miamistv View Post
This car was not overpriced. A drive through the canyons will prove the value. A loaded M4 is in the high 90s. It is misunderstood because of some bad reviews in the U.S. It is not a car for everyone or everyday. It was unfortunate that BMW produced too many of them. I definitely feel screwed.
You said it yourself that those who have driven the car know what it's worth. Not sure why you feel screwed?
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      12-15-2017, 06:22 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miamistv View Post
This car was not overpriced. A drive through the canyons will prove the value. A loaded M4 is in the high 90s. It is misunderstood because of some bad reviews in the U.S. It is not a car for everyone or everyday. It was unfortunate that BMW produced too many of them. I definitely feel screwed.
No need to feel screwed. Enjoy it! In 10 years it will still be worth the same (or more) since it is a limited edition and last one of a breed with future hybrid/4 wheel drive M3/M4s. I see a few in Germany, Switzerland, Austria and France, all for $200,000+. Those markets got very limited numbers.
The only people getting screwed are the ones who were hoping to flip them on the US market. I do not feel sorry for them.
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      12-15-2017, 08:08 PM   #171
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Horse sh*t. Tons of GT3 owners drive and track our cars.



More horse sh*t. You must go to the only track in the country without GT3 drivers.
Ok dude, you win.
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      12-17-2017, 09:25 AM   #172
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Well guys, Im about to pull the trigger on a 991 GT3 gen 1. Everything is in place, want to do some things to it prior to delivery, should get it next week. For me, I will ponder what the deal is with the GTS. Cars still seem to be sitting and are continuing to drop in price. Its a shame really. I think the car happens to look the business,is unique, and obviously performs. I passed on one at 98K which seems like a terrific deal and it still sits there unsold.The GT3 for me feels like the pinnacle. I drove the car for some time as I wanted to be reminded what am i getting myself into. On start up, it makes all sorts of mechanical noises, lurches forward as the gear engages, and the rest just feels surreal. What I mean by that is that the car when your on it just wails at your senses. The sound on the way up the revs is just epic. At one point i stopped the car to say to myself WTF. Here i am currently owning the Alfa quad and a TTRS that both sound great in there own way but nothing comes even remotely close to the GT3. In fairness, the GT3 is on another level, I totally get that. Now its obviously not as practical, comfortable, fuel consumption, etc as the other 2 but I'm fortunate I don't need practical. For those of you that do pick up a GTS, I'm really interested to hear what you think.Happy motoring.....
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      12-17-2017, 10:20 AM   #173
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Well guys, Im about to pull the trigger on a 991 GT3 gen 1. Everything is in place, want to do some things to it prior to delivery, should get it next week. For me, I will ponder what the deal is with the GTS. Cars still seem to be sitting and are continuing to drop in price. Its a shame really. I think the car happens to look the business,is unique, and obviously performs. I passed on one at 98K which seems like a terrific deal and it still sits there unsold.The GT3 for me feels like the pinnacle. I drove the car for some time as I wanted to be reminded what am i getting myself into. On start up, it makes all sorts of mechanical noises, lurches forward as the gear engages, and the rest just feels surreal. What I mean by that is that the car when your on it just wails at your senses. The sound on the way up the revs is just epic. At one point i stopped the car to say to myself WTF. Here i am currently owning the Alfa quad and a TTRS that both sound great in there own way but nothing comes even remotely close to the GT3. In fairness, the GT3 is on another level, I totally get that. Now its obviously not as practical, comfortable, fuel consumption, etc as the other 2 but I'm fortunate I don't need practical. For those of you that do pick up a GTS, I'm really interested to hear what you think.Happy motoring.....
Congrats if you pull the trigger .......the goodness with the 991.1 the engine has a ten year warranty or 100k. I had a 991.1 and recently sold my RS, and to your point I would not Daily Drive some do not sure why?? Itís a great car to drive really really hard, and it just whatís more. It deserves to be on the track or some fun mountain roads if possible. I just didnít have the time to drive it as I listed because go my work travel. Good luck itís a great car.
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      12-17-2017, 11:25 AM   #174
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When the GTS was new selling for msrp or more, it was much harder to argue against a GT3. But now there is a 40-50k price differential between a used 991 GT3 and GTS; and 80-100k for a new one, if you can get one. At those levels, not sure if that is smarter money. Personally I’d feel more comfortable at current GTS price levels in comparison, especially if tracking the car.
Porsche GT cars are at a higher level and premium over their "mainstream" line. Dont underestimate the engine and the driving experience of a NA motor. Porsche's decision to keep a N/A high revving race motor in their GT line is what enthusiasts are gushing after. I prioritize engagement and driving enjoyment, over straight up lap times. If lap times if what you're after go buy a dedicated track car for 1\3 of the price. How many times will I track my car on the ring? lol. To prove it, now Porsche put a manual in the GT3, which will have slower performance than a PDK but yet people are lined up to buy them. There are fewer and fewer options for N/A. If I could get a 991.2 GT3 manual at MSRP I would sell my 991 GTS for it in a second. The ceiling on these cars is so high the priority will be back to driving enjoyment.

BMW is not offering a unique line of GT cars like Porsche. If BMW did, I would highly consider spending a premium for them. But a CS is a ZCP with software updates... its what the M3 should be in the first place. come on BMW really for $100k? I would have considered the M4 GTS with a N/A motor but its not special enough with turbos, thus no premium. What warrants the price of a M4 GTS if no special motor? Water injection... seriously? BMW is doing it on the cheap. So it will always sell at a steep discount vs. a 991 GT line. The GTS will be for the BMW die hards, which is a much smaller pool than the GT3 pool.

With all this said, my point is to expect depreciation on a M4 GTS. Just like a GT3 will depreciate. A GT3 will hit a "floor" of around $100k. A M4 GTS will hit a "floor" of around $70k. They will appreciate in the mid to long term as cars move to electric, etc. But that's after keeping it in storage for 10 years, etc. They are fantastic cars, no doubt. I'm not hating on it. But just offering a perspective on why the prices are coming down to a floor level based on alternatives like the GT3. And from a buyer of $110k Porsche and BMW's, and what my view is on the M4 CS and GTS vs. Porsche.
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      12-18-2017, 12:09 AM   #175
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Porsche GT cars are at a higher level and premium over their "mainstream" line. Dont underestimate the engine and the driving experience of a NA motor. Porsche's decision to keep a N/A high revving race motor in their GT line is what enthusiasts are gushing after. I prioritize engagement and driving enjoyment, over straight up lap times. If lap times if what you're after go buy a dedicated track car for 1\3 of the price. How many times will I track my car on the ring? lol. To prove it, now Porsche put a manual in the GT3, which will have slower performance than a PDK but yet people are lined up to buy them. There are fewer and fewer options for N/A. If I could get a 991.2 GT3 manual at MSRP I would sell my 991 GTS for it in a second. The ceiling on these cars is so high the priority will be back to driving enjoyment.

BMW is not offering a unique line of GT cars like Porsche. If BMW did, I would highly consider spending a premium for them. But a CS is a ZCP with software updates... its what the M3 should be in the first place. come on BMW really for $100k? I would have considered the M4 GTS with a N/A motor but its not special enough with turbos, thus no premium. What warrants the price of a M4 GTS if no special motor? Water injection... seriously? BMW is doing it on the cheap. So it will always sell at a steep discount vs. a 991 GT line. The GTS will be for the BMW die hards, which is a much smaller pool than the GT3 pool.

With all this said, my point is to expect depreciation on a M4 GTS. Just like a GT3 will depreciate. A GT3 will hit a "floor" of around $100k. A M4 GTS will hit a "floor" of around $70k. They will appreciate in the mid to long term as cars move to electric, etc. But that's after keeping it in storage for 10 years, etc. They are fantastic cars, no doubt. I'm not hating on it. But just offering a perspective on why the prices are coming down to a floor level based on alternatives like the GT3. And from a buyer of $110k Porsche and BMW's, and what my view is on the M4 CS and GTS vs. Porsche.
Not sure I agree with the floors. There was a time just a few years ago when you could get a 996 GT3 for 45k, 997.1 GT3 for 70k, a 997.2 for 90k, and an 997.2 RS for 120k. Car values fluctuate based on lots of factors. I have no issue with the OP decision on the GT3. They are awesome cars and a thrill to drive. The GTS is a thrill in a different way (and I have owned both so I can truly compare). Definitely room in the garage and in this world for both. GT3 is more expensive to buy and a lot more expensive to maintain (ask me how I know) but for some, it may be worth it.

GTS drives a bit more under the radar as well which can be a good thing depending on who you are. The real problem with the GT3 on the street (assuming you don't mind a stiff suspension) is to get the thrill, one zing to redline in 2nd gear already has you at a 4 point ticket and in 3rd, jail time. The GTS torque is more immediate on the street so the thrills come sooner. As for the benefits of the GTS package, I think the chassis is the bigger story than the motor. There is an intangible feel that is unrelated to the motor that makes it very satisfying to drive.

Finally, on the track, GT3 is wonderful, no doubt about it, though the GTS again can be setup to compete if you want.
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      12-18-2017, 06:08 PM   #176
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I love the car, but if it is announced that only so many will be produced and delivered to the US, then it is wrong for those numbers to be ignored. BMW made a big deal about the production and allocation and now it seems that many dealers are offering deep discounts because of the extra units that were allocated. The market is only so large for a specialty car such as this because of the practicality issues.
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