Cost to track: Porsche vs BMW, chime in if you’ve upgraded

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by gum2012

Hah exactly. It’s just like people playing golf. Trying to get their swing down as much as possible to win absolutely nothing. The best driver is the one having the most fun and it’s not really debatable. We only do this to have fun because lord knows it’s expensive as hell .

Great analogy about the golf!

[Montaver]

To me the aim of the track is to have fun exploring the limits of the car and improving yourself as a driver. You can do that in any car from a Miata to a Performante and still have a blast.

I think a lot of the animosity towards GT cars and/or expensive exotics is because you see them driven at 6/10ths in lower groups, then bragging about how they crushed everyone. A 2:10 at WGI in a stock E9x M3 is very hard to achieve, a GT3 can cruise that time with a little commitment. I see ego on both sides of the equation though as people often assume expensive cars are just 'posing' or whatever and have no skills which clearly isn't true. Although when you see a GT3 cup car in Red group with tire warmers before an HPDE session it's pretty funny 😁... but if the guy enjoys it let him have at it, who am I to judge.

Back on topic I picked up a GT4, will report back once I get a good grip on consumables. I expect the costs to be pretty similar to my e90 and m2c, potentially slightly easier on tires and brakes given the weight difference.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Back on topic I picked up a GT4, will report back once I get a good grip on consumables. I expect the costs to be pretty similar to my e90 and m2c, potentially slightly easier on tires and brakes given the weight difference.

We would highly appreciate it...

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Montaver

To me the aim of the track is to have fun exploring the limits of the car and improving yourself as a driver. You can do that in any car from a Miata to a Performante and still have a blast.

I think a lot of the animosity towards GT cars and/or expensive exotics is because you see them driven at 6/10ths in lower groups, then bragging about how they crushed everyone. A 2:10 at WGI in a stock E9x M3 is very hard to achieve, a GT3 can cruise that time with a little commitment. I see ego on both sides of the equation though as people often assume expensive cars are just 'posing' or whatever and have no skills which clearly isn't true. Although when you see a GT3 cup car in Red group with tire warmers before an HPDE session it's pretty funny ��... but if the guy enjoys it let him have at it, who am I to judge.

Back on topic I picked up a GT4, will report back once I get a good grip on consumables. I expect the costs to be pretty similar to my e90 and m2c, potentially slightly easier on tires and brakes given the weight difference.

Looking forward to reading about your experience with the GT4 as it is a car I am considering even though it is not as fast as my F80... but probably a little more fun?

[r4dr]

Originally Posted by jmg

Looking forward to reading about your experience with the GT4 as it is a car I am considering even though it is not as fast as my F80... but probably a little more fun?

Oh hey, I recognize you from Nasioc OT!

I’ve only hot lapped a GT4, so that’s all I can compare to an M car. Let’s forget about lap times — the GT4 is substantially more fun. It’s lighter, smaller, and the mid engine physics blew me away. Sure that’s partly due to it being a 6 figure P car, but man it’s just dreamy feeling.

I love BMWs and we have 5 currently, but that session in a GT4 is something I’ve thought about longingly since.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by r4dr

I’ve only hot lapped a GT4, so that’s all I can compare to an M car. Let’s forget about lap times — the GT4 is substantially more fun. It’s lighter, smaller, and the mid engine physics blew me away.

I've tracked a GT4 that was fully done up, 3 way suspension, power package, the works. Significantly less fun than the M3.
Not being able to rotate a car is less fun.
Mid engined physics translate into a car that wants to spin out

I have to say, everyone here who lusts after the GT4: I question your driving level.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by jmg

Looking forward to reading about your experience with the GT4 as it is a car I am considering even though it is not as fast as my F80... but probably a little more fun?

Sure thing, on the street it's night and day difference. You sit very low in the GT4, and the engine is much more talkative always chuntering away behind you. Even if the car isn't faster than my M2C (which it probably isn't), the theater, drama and feeling are on a different level. It makes a very rawkus noise, surprised how loud it is for a stock exhaust.

On track it probably won't be 'faster' than an F80 but I don't really care. There are no points or prizes for HPDE lap times Personally if you are considering one and can afford it I would say go for it. Life is about enjoying new experiences after all!

It's at the detailer at the moment, but looks like first outing will be NJMP Tbolt with NASA end of September.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I've tracked a GT4 that was fully done up, 3 way suspension, power package, the works. Significantly less fun than the M3.
Not being able to rotate a car is less fun.
Mid engined physics translate into a car that wants to spin out

I have to say, everyone here who lusts after the GT4: I question your driving level.

There are plenty of videos on Youtube of people setting lap times in mid engine cars and have no trouble rotating on the brakes. Harris in his GT4 review even points out how balanced and easy to slide it is. By your logic Ferarris, Lambos, Mclarens aren't fun either. Take the blinkers off mate

[jfritz27]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Sure thing, on the street it's night and day difference. You sit very low in the GT4, and the engine is much more talkative always chuntering away behind you. Even if the car isn't faster than my M2C (which it probably isn't), the theater, drama and feeling are on a different level. It makes a very rawkus noise, surprised how loud it is for a stock exhaust.

On track it probably won't be 'faster' than an F80 but I don't really care. There are no points or prizes for HPDE lap times Personally if you are considering one and can afford it I would say go for it. Life is about enjoying new experiences after all!

It's at the detailer at the moment, but looks like first outing will be NJMP Tbolt with NASA end of September.

Best of luck with it! I'll be at TBolt just for that Saturday, what group will you be running in?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Montaver

There are plenty of videos on Youtube of people setting lap times in mid engine cars and have no trouble rotating on the brakes. Harris in his GT4 review even points out how balanced and easy to slide it is. By your logic Ferarris, Lambos, Mclarens aren't fun either. Take the blinkers off mate

Harris. You are making my point. The question isn't whether Harris can properly drive a mid engined car, or whether Randy Pobst can drive a GT3 properly: it's whether regular humans can.
My vote is no, but now you have one so you can prove it.

Have you driven lots of Ferraris, Lambos and McLarens? It would take a Harris/Pobst to drive any of them well. They are fun the way a Dodge Demon is 'fun', but to actually drive one properly? Not a chance.


Again, lots of advice is given over the interwebs, mostly by people who don't really have a clue what they are doing. I am quite uninterested in people's opinions of cars and handling characteristics when they aren't fast. It's like having a vegetarian explain how to cook a steak: it's jibberish.

The people who have the blinkers on are the ones that have never put down a decent lap in their lives but feel qualified to state things about handling characteristics.

If someone comes here and says "hey, I just did a 2:03.0 at WGI in my F8X on a R1 tire with suspension and brakes, now I've upgraded to a 991.2 GT3 and it handles SOOO much better, I drove my GT3 to the track the way I used to drive my F8X and did a 1:58 on my first weekend" then I will be inclined to listen.. but that isn't the case, so I don't.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Harris. You are making my point. The question isn't whether Harris can properly drive a mid engined car, or whether Randy Pobst can drive a GT3 properly: it's whether regular humans can.
My vote is no, but now you have one so you can prove it.

Have you driven lots of Ferraris, Lambos and McLarens? It would take a Harris/Pobst to drive any of them well. They are fun the way a Dodge Demon is 'fun', but to actually drive one properly? Not a chance.


Again, lots of advice is given over the interwebs, mostly by people who don't really have a clue what they are doing. I am quite uninterested in people's opinions of cars and handling characteristics when they aren't fast. It's like having a vegetarian explain how to cook a steak: it's jibberish.

The people who have the blinkers on are the ones that have never put down a decent lap in their lives but feel qualified to state things about handling characteristics.

If someone comes here and says "hey, I just did a 2:03.0 at WGI in my F8X on a R1 tire with suspension and brakes, now I've upgraded to a 991.2 GT3 and it handles SOOO much better, I drove my GT3 to the track the way I used to drive my F8X and did a 1:58 on my first weekend" then I will be inclined to listen.. but that isn't the case, so I don't.

I'm not claiming to be the fastest driver on the circuit, but i'll be able to comfortably explain the handling differences. If we only listened to people who were in the top percentile of drivers it would be a very small echo chamber indeed.

A well driven F8x might be faster, sure. It will be cheaper, sure. It will be 'easier' to drive on the limit, probably. But at the end of the day what does that mean? I drive for enjoyment, to have fun, improve as a driver. I've had 2 M cars, 4 BMW's, and want to try something different. I'm very familiar with the front engine, RWD layout. I'm not wedded to any brand or car because I enjoy them all in different ways. The only lap times I will be comparing with is other GT4 drivers, and a GT4 well driven seems plenty quick enough for me to have a good time.

Anyway, I'm not here to defend my choices or espouse the benefits of one car over another. This thread was specifically asking those who had made the switch to a Pcar about costs, which is why I posted. For those that are interested i'll post my thoughts once I have some track time.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by jfritz27

Best of luck with it! I'll be at TBolt just for that Saturday, what group will you be running in?

DE3 or 4, depends if @NYG and his 600HP muscle car crew show up to bully me off the track As long as work plays nice, I should be able to do Friday/Saturday.

What colour is your F80? Defo come over and say hello!

[NYG]

Originally Posted by Montaver

DE3 or 4, depends if @NYG and his muscle car crew show up to bully me off the track As long as work plays nice, I should be able to do Friday/Saturday.

What colour is your F80? Defo come over and say hello!

They bully me too.

American cars sure aren't what they used to be.

No T-Bolt for me though, can't stand that track.

[FormulaMMM]

Put me in the category of unsure if modern GT cars are more fun than a reasonably prepped M car.

They are more capable out the box, much easier to drive, more remarkable from a pure engineering/motorsport standpoint I think. I'm not sure that necessarily = more fun.

But as I've said elsewhere, too often considered in direct comparison/competition imo. They are so different from behind the wheel.

[jfritz27]

Originally Posted by Montaver

DE3 or 4, depends if @NYG and his 600HP muscle car crew show up to bully me off the track As long as work plays nice, I should be able to do Friday/Saturday.

What colour is your F80? Defo come over and say hello!

Nice, I'll be in DE2.

I'm in a matte PPF-wrapped mineral gray, NJ organ donor plate, will keep my eyes peeled. Here's to good weather

NYG: Why the TBolt hate? Not enough walls? It's like a 50 min drive for me so I can't complain

[r4dr]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I've tracked a GT4 that was fully done up, 3 way suspension, power package, the works. Significantly less fun than the M3.
Not being able to rotate a car is less fun.
Mid engined physics translate into a car that wants to spin out

I have to say, everyone here who lusts after the GT4: I question your driving level.

On the contrary, I found it easier to rotate a mid-engined GT4 than a big, heavy front-engined F8X car with the weight spread out along such a long axis. But I guess YMMV. F8X would certainly put better lap times down.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by jfritz27

Nice, I'll be in DE2.

I'm in a matte PPF-wrapped mineral gray, NJ organ donor plate, will keep my eyes peeled. Here's to good weather

NYG: Why the TBolt hate? Not enough walls? It's like a 50 min drive for me so I can't complain

Lmaoooooo.

It feels like an auto-x track. Doesn't flow at all.

I like lightning a lot more. I'll probably be there with NASA in Nov.

[MyFragileHalogen]

I take Shadow's comment as mid-engined P-cars like to steer to too well. Still in my fairly early professional career I have not had a luxury of sitting behind one of those wheels. so I have to guess from my experience with Miata (sorry lol) that steers too well.

F8x is pretty much a drift car. It's stable and controllable while it's on sideway. Car itself has negative feedback to balance the oversteer. To me it's impossible to spin in this car unless I run out of pavement or step on oil, or perhaps car is race-built and tires will store so much potential energy while gripping. It's extremely easy to catch oversteer at single countersteer, and also the edge of traction circle is very generous that enables some barbaric trail braking diving into corners.

While Miata is amazing how it handles and gives so much great joy, the edge of traction circle is very narrow and car takes only tiny input to cross the limit. Car's oversteer rotation is very quick and it's much harder to counter at one try. Also sideway is not controllable. It wants to snap and it has to be corrected ASAP or I run out of pavement very quick. It's manageble on street tires but only mostly for fun, I don't think it will be very easy to drive it on the egde- especially with stickier tires, and scary as hell at high speed (car is not built for high speed). I need to get back to Miata and try trailbraking like what I was able to do with F8x, it will be a challenge that might kill me.

Just a poor man's guess how perhaps it sounds like try drving P-cars at their limit.

Back on the subject, we aren't pro drivers living to race so what makes one happy would be what matters, and I would love to drive all of those cars regardless.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

I take Shadow's comment as mid-engined P-cars like to steer to too well. Still in my fairly early professional career I have not had a luxury of sitting behind one of those wheels. so I have to guess from my experience with Miata (sorry lol) that steers too well.

F8x is pretty much a drift car. It's stable and controllable while it's on sideway. Car itself has negative feedback to balance the oversteer. To me it's impossible to spin in this car unless I run out of pavement or step on oil, or perhaps car is race-built and tires will store so much potential energy while gripping. It's extremely easy to catch oversteer at single countersteer, and also the edge of traction circle is very generous that enables some barbaric trail braking diving into corners.

While Miata is amazing how it handles and gives so much great joy, the edge of traction circle is very narrow and car takes only tiny input to cross the limit. Car's oversteer rotation is very quick and it's much harder to counter at one try. Also sideway is not controllable. It wants to snap and it has to be corrected ASAP or I run out of pavement very quick. It's manageble on street tires but only mostly for fun, I don't think it will be very easy to drive it on the egde- especially with stickier tires, and scary as hell at high speed (car is not built for high speed). I need to get back to Miata and try trailbraking like what I was able to do with F8x, it will be a challenge that might kill me.

Just a poor man's guess how perhaps it sounds like try drving P-cars at their limit.

Back on the subject, we aren't pro drivers living to race so what makes one happy would be what matters, and I would love to drive all of those cars regardless.

A car with a short wheelbase like a Miata will be inherently 'snappier' than an F8x. Interesting point of view though, I would never of considered a Miata hard to control! I have always thought they would be a very forgiving chassis.

[MyFragileHalogen]

https://www.motortrend.com/news/pors...-to-blasphemy/

I find this interesting to read again and notice how Randy Pobst hated the GT3 Cup which doesn't have ABS or traction control. He was very happy with GT3 R and satisfyingly drove fast and impressed Porsche staff, but with ABS and traction control on.

I don't know how these rear/mid engined car work differently so it's hard to understand his comments about how these cars (GT3 cup, GT3 R, RSR, GT3) drives. Maybe someone here knows or at least it's fun food for thoughts?

"It proudly wears the 911 character with a bit of tail-happiness when turning into a tight corner but changing quickly to strong understeer if the driver impetuously gets on the throttle too soon."

"I found it easy to lock an inside front tire entering the switchbacks. That familiar understeer would appear once the weight had transferred to the outside."

"The challenge is to release the brake and trust the grip."

"stable entering the corner and loosening up in the middle of the turn. Many other cars are the other way around, but with the GT3 powerplant out back, this handling is ideal. Drive it in deep with confidence, and then have it steer willingly for the apex. Could this be the result of an advancement in rear steer?"

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

https://www.motortrend.com/news/pors...-to-blasphemy/

I find this interesting to read again and notice how Randy Pobst hated the GT3 Cup which doesn't have ABS or traction control. He was very happy with GT3 R and satisfyingly drove fast and impressed Porsche staff, but with ABS and traction control on.

I don't know how these rear/mid engined car work differently so it's hard to understand his comments about how these cars (GT3 cup, GT3 R, RSR, GT3) drives. Maybe someone here knows or at least it's fun food for thoughts?

"It proudly wears the 911 character with a bit of tail-happiness when turning into a tight corner but changing quickly to strong understeer if the driver impetuously gets on the throttle too soon."

"I found it easy to lock an inside front tire entering the switchbacks. That familiar understeer would appear once the weight had transferred to the outside."

"The challenge is to release the brake and trust the grip."

"stable entering the corner and loosening up in the middle of the turn. Many other cars are the other way around, but with the GT3 powerplant out back, this handling is ideal. Drive it in deep with confidence, and then have it steer willingly for the apex. Could this be the result of an advancement in rear steer?"

I remember discussing Porsche with him a couple years ago. We raced in AER three years with Randy as a codriver so we were spoiled, a very memorable experience for sure.
Anyway, I wanted a pro driver's explanation for why Porsches are so slow on track despite their Excel sheet superiority and figured that he, as a Porsche driver who has set many records for them, would have the answer.

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I remember discussing Porsche with him a couple years ago. We raced in AER three years with Randy as a codriver so we were spoiled, a very memorable experience for sure.
Anyway, I wanted a pro driver's explanation for why Porsches are so slow on track despite their Excel sheet superiority and figured that he, as a Porsche driver who has set many records for them, would have the answer.

That's so cool! Thanks for sharing the story.