'17 died. Cranks, no fire. Throwing codes. Spun crank hub?

[l00semarble]

Car is 6-speed manual. Bone stock with BM3 93 octane tune.

Was running car on track at Watkins Glen. No money shift...having nice a smooth lap and then coming out of turn 9 no power. Notice RPMs are zero. Coast to pit and car will not restart. Cranks but no fire.

Car towed to nearest BMW dealer by CPO/Roadside assist. They scan with ISTA and see the following codes. Their conclusion is "internal engine damage, need new engine" with no other diagnostics. I got the car out of there and now have it home in Maryland on a U-Haul trailer and I have to come up with a plan.

Codes are:

164021 - Intake Camshaft sensor, electric: Short circuit to ground
164031 - Exhaust Camshaft sensor, electric: Short circuit to ground
165011 - High pressure pump position sensor, signal: missing, substitute value active
165013 - High pressure pump position sensor, plausibility: signals implausible, substitute value not active

Car cranks fine/smoothly and once in a while it will stumble a little like trying to run but will not start or run. It is acting like it has no fuel but I guess it may act this way if it has no timing.

I've been trying to read about spun crank hubs but the content is overwhelming and I don't see any definitive set of symptoms/diagnostics to even know this is what I am dealing with.

Thoughts?

[tropicatango]

Bm3 stage 1 ? Off the shelf tune without any torque reduction in gears

[hellokitty]

Likely spun hub. Hopefully nothing major and can be fixed by simply retiming the car. Do an upgraded crank hub while you are at it.

[icegrill]

Totally stock except for tune….

[l00semarble]

Yes, BM3 off the shelf 93 octane tune. I have had no reason to want to reduce torque in any gear. I don't drag race. On a road course losing traction in 1st and 2nd not an issue. I'll take all the torque I can get in 3rd and 4th.

Yes, car totally stock hardware. Nothing bolted on. Not sure if I am missing a joke or sarcasm.

Have confirmed car lost timing. 95% sure no internal damage. Crank hub and everything else necessary is being ordered today. Going to go with the MaxPSI one I think.

Thanks for responses.

[MadM2C]

Originally Posted by l00semarble

Yes, BM3 off the shelf 93 octane tune. I have had no reason to want to reduce torque in any gear. I don't drag race. On a road course losing traction in 1st and 2nd not an issue. I'll take all the torque I can get in 3rd and 4th.

Yes, car totally stock hardware. Nothing bolted on. Not sure if I am missing a joke or sarcasm.

Have confirmed car lost timing. 95% sure no internal damage. Crank hub and everything else necessary is being ordered today. Going to go with the MaxPSI one I think.

Thanks for responses.

how many miles on the car?

No capture plate?

[Pittz1]

Would like to know which shop you choose to go with, if you pick one in the DMV.

[l00semarble]

Originally Posted by MadM2C

how many miles on the car?

No capture plate?

23,000 miles. "Bone stock. Nothing bolted on." Like....literally nothing including no bolt capture plate.

[l00semarble]

Originally Posted by Pittz1

Would like to know which shop you choose to go with, if you pick one in the DMV.

I have a secret sauce solution in the works. I won't make any comment until we have a proven successful engagement but if it works out I'll ask permission to disclose my arrangement which does not involve walking in the front door of a shop.

There is a risk/reward trade off here. We'll see how it goes.

[Reddevils7]

If this was my car I would do the CBC plate while in there. I would consider doing downpipes +/- turbo, fmic, heat exchanger, charge and j pipes too as they're very accessible when doing the hub but definitely just remove the charcoal filters from the air boxes and do drops ins as I thought that was a nice little addition when I first did it. glad to hear no engine damage

[slaughter.mode]

Wow, that's bad luck at 23K. I drove to 60K (hard) before I installed the Vargas V2 Spinelock with their CBC plate. I strongly believe Vargas has the best design hands down, especially not needing to drill the crank. I don't know how anyone thought that would ever be a good idea. Solid piece or not, it's compromising the integrity of a critical component, especially if the drilling isn't absolutely perfect. The only thing that matters is the first gear on the hub for timing, the second can spin forever who cares it's just for the oil pump, go ahead and spin faster, sure.

Anyway, GL!

[l00semarble]

Originally Posted by nv_f82

Wow, that's bad luck at 23K. I drove to 60K (hard) before I installed the Vargas V2 Spinelock with their CBC plate. I strongly believe Vargas has the best design hands down, especially not needing to drill the crank. I don't know how anyone thought that would ever be a good idea. Solid piece or not, it's compromising the integrity of a critical component, especially if the drilling isn't absolutely perfect. The only thing that matters is the first gear on the hub for timing, the second can spin forever who cares it's just for the oil pump, go ahead and spin faster, sure.

Anyway, GL!

If I understand what happens when you "spin" the crank hub there is no possibility of the oil pump gear spinning faster. If it slips on the hub it will spin less than the crank and if it were to slip entirely and "freewheel" it could stop entirely and resulting lack of oil pressure is not super awesome. I think that this would stop the high pressure fuel pump also so hopefully engine would shut down due to lack of fuel before oil starvation but I have no idea for sure how that would work.

The tech working on my car says he has seen a motor starved of oil after a warranty crank hub replacement with OEM parts. He said that he though the snout was too smooth due to previous spin and he thought it would happen again with a stock crank hub but BMW told him to put it together that way. He says car later spun it again, lost oil pressure and roasted internals.

This is one of the reasons I chose the MaxPSI hub over Vargas after looking into it. The 2nd gear is locked where in the Vargas one the 2nd gear could still spin.

You claim drilling compromises integrity but this snout part of the crankshaft is just along for the ride. It isn't loaded except for the crank hub. The Vargas solution looks good too but it also does not leave the crank untouched. It forcefully "bites" into it which is also "compromising integrity" but I don't think either one is going to be a problem with the crank snout itself remaining strong enough.

i saw how the holes are drilled and they provide a high quality bolt on guide/jig that should make drilling the holes perfect every time. Seems it would be difficult to mess up hole position or alignment with the jig.

[l00semarble]

Actually now that I think about it all the codes my car was throwing originally were due to high pressure fuel pump position issues which maybe was due to the 2nd gear not turning. And car shut down like it had no fuel.

[Bmwlmr99]

106,000miles no crank hub mods....major problem I had was just stuck open fuel injectors from racing a lot....hope you get your car fixed soon

[LYTSOUT]

l00semarble It's been a couple weeks since you last posted. What's the final verdict? Did you spin the crank hub, or not?

[l00semarble]

Originally Posted by LYTSOUT

l00semarble It's been a couple weeks since you last posted. What's the final verdict? Did you spin the crank hub, or not?

Oh yeah sorry. Yes the crank hub spun. There was no compression and ITSA did show some other codes related to correlation faults. Luckily there appears to be no internal engine damage. MaxPSI hub is installed, car re-timed and running fine. It was only road tested once after repair and then it has been sitting as I have not been able to pick it up yet.