6MT or DCT?

[captainaudio]

It does not bother me if someone calls the DCT an automatic transmission.
IMO any transmission that can automatically shift gears is by definition an automatic transmission regardless of the technology employed.

The best of the modern planetary gear automatic transmission have gotten so good that they give DCTs a good run for the money and the best of the best are almost indistinguishable from DCTs. Torque converters are IMO a non issue as they are locked out once the car is in motion. Torque converters are actually a very good device for obtaining smooth starts.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by AIRPOWER

I believe I said I understood that in my original post, therefore your correction is invalid.

Also if you own a DCT and manually shift the gears doesn't that defeat the purpose of it? Could have saved yourself $2900.

Yeah, that's the thing - I used to be an MT dick until I got a DCT and drove it for a few months ... until then, like you, I wouldn't have understood. If you're not good with change, especially in your toys, it takes a few weeks or months for your mind to wrap itself about a new concept and habit.

Just my 2 cents, but the reason that people associate an MT with a sports car is because of the control you had with the gearing - and that used to be partly the clutch kick, but then someone had a great idea for racing: what if you could have the same control without the latency? And that's the DCT.

Now as an MT dick, I used to think that meant 0.00001 seconds in 0-60 ... until I got a DCT. Then I realized I had even more control, plus I was faster in the car everywhere, plus the DCT does shit I could never imagine doing in an MT.

Truth be told, if I had multiple cars my non-sports cars would be MTs because in a slow car it is more fun and I can't stand cheap planetary/torque converter transmissions. But in a fast car, the DCT is more fun because it's so much faster.

Here's the good news for us all: this thread is quaint old guy shit because we're not going to have transmissions in a few years.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by AIRPOWER

I believe I said I understood that in my original post, therefore your correction is invalid.

Also if you own a DCT and manually shift the gears doesn't that defeat the purpose of it? Could have saved yourself $2900.

I think the answer to that question would be found in fact that most modern race cars and in particular the highest performing cars that run on road racing courses(Formula 1, Tudor Sports Car Series for example) have paddle shifted transmissions that the driver shifts manually.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by AIRPOWER

True but last I checked unless I MANUALLY shift to the next gear I will redline and probably blow my engine.

DCT in Manual (Sequential) mode will do just the same as a 6MT and bounce off the limiter. Both the 6MT and DCT benefit from the same "automated" engine protection called the rev-limiter .

Originally Posted by AIRPOWER

Also if you own a DCT and manually shift the gears doesn't that defeat the purpose of it? Could have saved yourself $2900.

It seems you are fundamentally misunderstanding the purpose of the DCT.

[gatorfast]

What a PC world we live in when people take offense to an automatic transmission being called an automatic transmission

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

What a PC world we live in when people take offense to an automatic transmission being called an automatic transmission

Who's taking offense?

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Who's taking offense?

Like 1 or 2 people, Gruss, and now it's like every DCT driver believes they're driving a manual transmission. LOL

Most of us DCT'ers know we're driving a highly-engineered dual-clutch automatic, and we love it. We know it's not a manual, because obviously we didn't check that box....purposely.

I'm going to assume that most manual jockeys don't care that a select few DCT drivers "believe" they're driving a tried-and-true manual. I won't use the same broad brush to paint those that love their manual gearboxes as seriously perturbed about the select few labeling their DCT a "manual gearbox".

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Like 1 or 2 people, Gruss, and now it's like every DCT driver believes they're driving a manual transmission. LOL

Most of us DCT'ers know we're driving a highly-engineered dual-clutch automatic, and we love it. We know it's not a manual, because obviously we didn't check that box....purposely.

I'm going to assume that most manual jockeys don't care that a select few DCT drivers "believe" they're driving a tried-and-true manual. I won't use the same broad brush to paint those that love their manual gearboxes as seriously perturbed about the select few labeling their DCT a "manual gearbox".

A skilled driver will be a skilled driver regardless or what transmission the car he/she is driving is equipped with and requirements for being a skilled driver go far beyond knowing how to shift a manual transmission.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

DCT guys feel they have the superior technology
6MT guys feel they are superior as drivers

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Most of us DCT'ers know we're driving a highly-engineered dual-clutch automatic, and we love it. We know it's not a manual, because obviously we didn't check that box....purposely.

Well Kev, I think you just hit on the key distinction in Can's point:

The DCTers belief that they have superior technology is an objective fact, whereas the 6MT guys are working with a subjective opinion.

[AIRPOWER]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

DCT in Manual (Sequential) mode will do just the same as a 6MT and bounce off the limiter. Both the 6MT and DCT benefit from the same "automated" engine protection called the rev-limiter .

It seems you are fundamentally misunderstanding the purpose of the DCT.

No misunderstanding at all. It can shift automatically for you and its as simple as that . Regardless of all the benefits which I have never disputed and the fact that formula one cars have them. Hell Martian spacecraft can have them for all I care but you will never find one in the sports cars I drive. I think you are misunderstanding that I hate automatic transmissions because they are boring.

Oh and thanks for the Rev limiter info (really), i actually didn't know that but I would never get that close to find out

Call me a DCT neophyte or an knuckle dragging MT shifting neanderthal but like I have stated many times, both transmissions owners have their highly inflated opinions about what they like/dislike of each. We could be having this same conversation about Mac vs PC, cats vs dogs, Galaxy vs iPhone or even redheads vs brunettes, its a personal preference.

Like someone said earlier I think its the name Automatic that gets you guys riled up more than anything. That's probably because you dont want all the negative connotational baggage that come with it and personally I can't blame you

[AIRPOWER]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Yeah, that's the thing - I used to be an MT dick until I got a DCT and drove it for a few months ... until then, like you, I wouldn't have understood. If you're not good with change, especially in your toys, it takes a few weeks or months for your mind to wrap itself about a new concept and habit.

Just my 2 cents, but the reason that people associate an MT with a sports car is because of the control you had with the gearing - and that used to be partly the clutch kick, but then someone had a great idea for racing: what if you could have the same control without the latency? And that's the DCT.

Now as an MT dick, I used to think that meant 0.00001 seconds in 0-60 ... until I got a DCT. Then I realized I had even more control, plus I was faster in the car everywhere, plus the DCT does shit I could never imagine doing in an MT.

Truth be told, if I had multiple cars my non-sports cars would be MTs because in a slow car it is more fun and I can't stand cheap planetary/torque converter transmissions. But in a fast car, the DCT is more fun because it's so much faster.

Here's the good news for us all: this thread is quaint old guy shit because we're not going to have transmissions in a few years.

Your indirect insinuation is slightly insulting grussgott . I am a not a MT dick and I am proud to say that I never used to be an AT dick even when I did own one. Come to think of it there really is no reason to be an AT dick. If you notice in this forum and especially in this thread the Pro DCT people seem to always be on the defensive, why is that? This is a rhetorical question so there is no need to answer unless you feel the compelling urge to defend your transmission choice.

I love this forum for these types of debates.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by AIRPOWER

I love this forum for these types of debates.

I too enjoy those debates (when done respectfully and intelligently)

It is also funny to see how threads like this one pick-up when it gets quiet with "new news" about the M3/4 .

Originally Posted by AIRPOWER

No misunderstanding at all. It can shift automatically for you and its as simple as that . Regardless of all the benefits which I have never disputed and the fact that formula one cars have them. Hell Martian spacecraft can have them for all I care but you will never find one in the sports cars I drive. I think you are misunderstanding that I hate automatic transmissions because they are boring.

Oh and thanks for the Rev limiter info (really), i actually didn't know that but I would never get that close to find out

Call me a DCT neophyte or an knuckle dragging MT shifting neanderthal but like I have stated many times, both transmissions owners have their highly inflated opinions about what they like/dislike of each. We could be having this same conversation about Mac vs PC, cats vs dogs, Galaxy vs iPhone or even redheads vs brunettes, its a personal preference.

Like someone said earlier I think its the name Automatic that gets you guys riled up more than anything. That's probably because you dont want all the negative connotational baggage that come with it and personally I can't blame you

First off, I think it is great that BMW is still offering us consumers the choice of a 6MT for the M3/4; and I can perfectly understand why some folks prefer the "manual" option.

Second, I could not really care less that people call the DCT an "automatic". However, considering the DCT just as any other "automatic" is really missing the point of what a DCT is all about. I have already posted something to that effect earlier, but I will elaborate a little more.

The point of view of the majority of 6MT advocates is focused on the driver's interface with the controls, meaning the H-pattern shifter and the clutch pedal. From that point of view, yes DCT more closely resembles an automatic. My point of view though is focused on the connection between driver and result; the link between the driver's desire and the vehicle's behavior. And from that point of view, DCT is much closer to a "manual" than it is to an "automatic".

The reason I picked manual transmissions on all my previous cars before my first DCT is quite simple: it was the better performance option. Period.

Torque converter automatics were slower. Not only acceleration wise, but mostly response wise. There was that inherent disconnection between your right foot and the power delivered to the drive wheels due to the torque converter. There was also that inherent delay when requesting a gear change. For those reasons, automatic gearboxes were a real drag (no pun intended) to drive spiritedly on the street or at the limit on a track. The unpredictable power delivery made it nearly impossible to throttle steer the car and made them quite jerky.

With a manual transmission, the driver could control exactly how the power was delivered to the drive wheels and it offered better acceleration to boot. The driver would precisely command when a given gear would engage. And when a gear is engaged, there is a hard mechanical connection from the engine to the drive wheels. I did not buy 6MT to press a pedal and row gears, I bought 6MT for the increased performance and control over the car. That is what made them "more engaging" to me. They provided the best relationship between the driver's input and vehicle behavior.

The DCT offer exactly that, and more. I see the DCT as the next evolution of the manual transmission and not as an evolution of "automatics". It is not because DCT can be made to manage the gear selection process that it means it is its primary function. DCT were designed to bring the gear change process to the next level of performance while leaving the gear selection to the driver. That is why they are progressively replacing manuals on high performance cars.

Traditional torque converter/planetary-gear automatics will continue to exist. They have their own raison-d'etre and will not be replaced with DCT. They also evolved quite a bit in terms of responsiveness and performance. Quite a few traditional automatics have become faster that their manual counterparts and electronics have dramatically improved their responsiveness. However, they still cannot match the direct mechanical connection offered by MT or DCT.

Manual transmissions have evolved a fair bit too, with more and more automated features added to them to simplify their operation (synchromesh, clutch dampers, dual mass flywheels, auto-rev-match to name a few). But their interface with the driver has remained fairly constant (H-pattern shifter and a clutch). And it is that interface that most 6MT advocates are attached to IMO. And this is why they resent DCT, because it changes how they communicate with the car, even if the car's response itself is not altered or even improved with DCT. For my part, I have done so many MT gear changes, blips and heel-and-toes, that it has become a second nature; I don't even need to "think" about it when I do it anymore, so I don't find rowing my own gears to be that much more "engaging".

I have to admit, when ordering my M4, I pondered a very long time between the DCT and 6MT. Not because I wanted to row my own gears, but because I was not sure which offered the best total performance package (I have a long thread on this). And even to this day, I am pretty convinced that on the F8X, the DCT does not offer as much of an advantage as it did on the E9X.

And I take all those comments about "not caring for those few tenths of second" from most of the MT crowd with tongue in cheek. Why do they add JB4 and downpipes and intakes just to gain those few tenths back .

All that being said, there are many who pick the DCT because it manages the whole gear change/selection process for them. In their case, they do pick DCT because it is an automatic.

Sorry for the long dissertation, hopefully some will find it entertaining in that quiet "no new news" period .

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

DCT guys feel they have the superior technology
6MT guys feel they are superior as drivers



I know, I am generalizing. But I still think it sums it up well .

I don't think thats true. I think MT guys feel they enjoy driving more. I in no way think me driving a manual makes me a better driver because I think it's simple.

[KevinM]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It is also funny to see how threads likes this one pick-up when it gets quiet with "new news" about the M3/4 .

And, I can tell you from personal experience that threads like this become infinitely more interesting when one is awaiting re-delivery after ED..

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

And I take all those comments about "not caring for those few tenths of second" from most of the MT crowd with tongue in cheek. Why do they add JB4 and downpipes and intakes just to gain those few tenths back .

But...but...I actually don't care about the few tenths of a second...you've got to believe me!! Of course, no power increases for me, stock has enough for my needs.

As you state, I think the one thing that most of us can agree on is that it is great that BMW (for the moment) is offering us a choice (on some of its models anyway).

[JamesGames]

Originally Posted by dmk08

I don't think thats true. I think MT guys feel they enjoy driving more. I in no way think me driving a manual makes me a better driver because I think it's simple.

Agree with you.. having a 6MT myself that lives on the public roads, the manual transmission was more enjoyable to me - a trip to the grocery store and rowing gears throughout some 90 degree turns on the streets with speed limits is more fun to me than on a DCT car.

If my car saw a lot of track time, I'd probably go DCT.. but to live with a car that I have to row my own gears to get to Vons is more fun than DCT. That's how I ultimately made my choice.. and yes I'll sit in LA traffic rowing gears and it's more fun to me than the DCT still. (But to each their own right?)

If I had a E92 M3, I'd probably favor the DCT more due to those ridiculous sounding downshifts and the multiple quick blips, but the buttery smooth F8X manual transmission is a huge improvement IMO and is a joy in itself.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by AIRPOWER

Your indirect insinuation is slightly insulting

Ah, damn, I'm sorry! I didn't mean to be indirect at all.

Originally Posted by dmk08

I don't think thats true. I think MT guys feel they enjoy driving more. I in no way think me driving a manual makes me a better driver because I think it's simple.

Huh. I wonder then ... what if you have both!?

In that case, do you double enjoy driving more because 1+1=3, or do you hate driving because 1-1=0. GAH!

[AIRPOWER]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I too enjoy those debates (when done respectfully and intelligently)

It is also funny to see how threads likes this one pick-up when it gets quiet with "new news" about the M3/4 .

First off, I think it is great that BMW is still offering us consumers the choice of a 6MT for the M3/4; and I can perfectly understand why some folks prefer the "manual" option.

Second, I could not really care less that people call the DCT an "automatic". However, considering the DCT just as any other "automatic" is really missing the point of what a DCT is all about. I have already posted something to that effect earlier, but I will elaborate a little more.

The point of view of the majority of 6MT advocates is focused on the driver's interface with the controls, meaning the H-pattern shifter and the clutch pedal. Mine point of view is focused on the connection between driver and result; the link between the driver's desire and the vehicle's behavior.

The reason I picked manual transmissions on all my previous cars before my first DCT is quite simple: it was the better performance option. Period.

Torque converter automatics were slower. Not only acceleration wise, but mostly response wise. There was that inherent disconnection between your right foot and the power delivered to the drive wheels due to the torque converter. There was also that inherent delay when requesting a gear change. For those reasons, automatic gearboxes were a real drag (no pun intended) to drive spiritedly on the street or at the limit on track. The unpredictable power delivery made it nearly impossible to throttle steer the car and made them quite jerky.

With a manual transmission, the driver could control exactly how the power was delivered to the drive wheels and it offered better acceleration to boot. When a gear is engaged, there is a hard mechanical connection from the engine to the drive wheels. The driver would precisely command when a given gear would engage. I did not buy 6MT to press a pedal and row gears, I bought 6MT for the increased performance and control over the car. That is what made them "more engaging" to me. They provided the best relationship between the driver's input and vehicle behavior.

The DCT offer exactly that, and more. I see the DCT as the next evolution of the manual transmission and not as an evolution of "automatics". It is not because DCT can be made to manage the gear selection process that it means it is its primary function. DCT were designed to bring the gear change process to the next level of performance while leaving the gear selection to the driver. That is why they are progressively replacing manuals on high performance cars.

Traditional torque converter/planetary-gear automatics will continue to exist. They have their own raison-d'etre. They also evolved quite a bit in terms of responsiveness and performance. Quite a few traditional automatics have become faster that their manual counterparts and electronics have dramatically improved their responsiveness. However, they still cannot match the direct mechanical connection offered by MT or DCT.

Manual transmissions have evolved a fair bit too, with more and more automated features added to them to simplify their operation (synchromesh, clutch dampers, auto-rev-match to name a few). But their interface with the driver has remained fairly constant (H-pattern shifter and a clutch). And it is that interface that most 6MT advocates are attached to IMO. And this is why they resent DCT, because it changes how they communicate with the car, even if the car's response itself is not altered or even improved with DCT. For my part, I have done so many MT gear changes, blips and heel-and-toes, that it has become a second nature; I don't even need to "think" about it when I do it anymore.

I have to admit, when ordering my M4, I pondered a very long time between the DCT and 6MT. Not because I wanted to row my own gears, but because I was not sure which offered the best total performance package (I have a long thread on this). And even to this day, I am pretty convinced that on the F8X, the DCT does not offer as much of an advantage as it did on the E9X.

And I take all those comments about "not caring for those few tenths of second" from most of the MT crowd with tongue in cheek. Why do they add JB4 and downpipes and intakes just to gain those few tenths back .

Sorry for the long dissertation, hopefully some will find it entertaining it that quiet "no new news" period .

Sir,

Very well said!

Believe it or not I actually changed my DCT order to 6MT the very last week before production. Its funny that I had a lot of the same concerns you did but sided in the opposite direction.

The reason why I checked off the DCT box in the first place was because I felt the technology of the transmission matched the car (I.e. not hooking up a old CRT to a new computer).

The reason why I changed......well I guess I was afraid to change for starters but more importantly was unsure of the transmission's longevity (price of repair post warranty) and felt the cost to benefit ratio was too low but also because it was an automatic...... JUST KIDDING!!!!

In the end I feel I made the right choice but my wife disagreed which is fine as we disagree on a lot of things.

But if BMW no longer offered 6MT, I wouldn't switch from BMW, I would switch from MT

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by HBspeed

Dual clutch transmissions might be great, but for me it is like bringing a girl to a fast orgasm with a high tech vibrator.

go on ... and then ...

[AIRPOWER]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Ah, damn, I'm sorry! I didn't mean to be indirect at all.

What a knee slapper!!!!!! Go put your car in park........

[Jim B]

Originally Posted by JamesGames

Agree with you.. having a 6MT myself that lives on the public roads, the manual transmission was more enjoyable to me - a trip to the grocery store and rowing gears throughout some 90 degree turns on the streets with speed limits is more fun to me than on a DCT car.

If my car saw a lot of track time, I'd probably go DCT.. but to live with a car that I have to row my own gears to get to Vons is more fun than DCT. That's how I ultimately made my choice.. and yes I'll sit in LA traffic rowing gears and it's more fun to me than the DCT still. (But to each their own right?)

If I had a E92 M3, I'd probably favor the DCT more due to those ridiculous sounding downshifts and the multiple quick blips, but the buttery smooth F8X manual transmission is a huge improvement IMO and is a joy in itself.

+1

[m4recruiter]

I drive manual, but wanted DCT for ease of switching drivers in the family (nobody else drives stick).

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I too enjoy those debates (when done respectfully and intelligently)

It is also funny to see how threads like this one pick-up when it gets quiet with "new news" about the M3/4 .



First off, I think it is great that BMW is still offering us consumers the choice of a 6MT for the M3/4; and I can perfectly understand why some folks prefer the "manual" option.

Second, I could not really care less that people call the DCT an "automatic". However, considering the DCT just as any other "automatic" is really missing the point of what a DCT is all about. I have already posted something to that effect earlier, but I will elaborate a little more.

The point of view of the majority of 6MT advocates is focused on the driver's interface with the controls, meaning the H-pattern shifter and the clutch pedal. From that point of view, yes DCT more closely resembles an automatic. My point of view though is focused on the connection between driver and result; the link between the driver's desire and the vehicle's behavior. And from that point of view, DCT is much closer to a "manual" than it is to an "automatic".

The reason I picked manual transmissions on all my previous cars before my first DCT is quite simple: it was the better performance option. Period.

Torque converter automatics were slower. Not only acceleration wise, but mostly response wise. There was that inherent disconnection between your right foot and the power delivered to the drive wheels due to the torque converter. There was also that inherent delay when requesting a gear change. For those reasons, automatic gearboxes were a real drag (no pun intended) to drive spiritedly on the street or at the limit on track. The unpredictable power delivery made it nearly impossible to throttle steer the car and made them quite jerky.

With a manual transmission, the driver could control exactly how the power was delivered to the drive wheels and it offered better acceleration to boot. When a gear is engaged, there is a hard mechanical connection from the engine to the drive wheels. The driver would precisely command when a given gear would engage. I did not buy 6MT to press a pedal and row gears, I bought 6MT for the increased performance and control over the car. That is what made them "more engaging" to me. They provided the best relationship between the driver's input and vehicle behavior.

The DCT offer exactly that, and more. I see the DCT as the next evolution of the manual transmission and not as an evolution of "automatics". It is not because DCT can be made to manage the gear selection process that it means it is its primary function. DCT were designed to bring the gear change process to the next level of performance while leaving the gear selection to the driver. That is why they are progressively replacing manuals on high performance cars.

Traditional torque converter/planetary-gear automatics will continue to exist. They have their own raison-d'etre and will not be replaced with DCT. They also evolved quite a bit in terms of responsiveness and performance. Quite a few traditional automatics have become faster that their manual counterparts and electronics have dramatically improved their responsiveness. However, they still cannot match the direct mechanical connection offered by MT or DCT.

Manual transmissions have evolved a fair bit too, with more and more automated features added to them to simplify their operation (synchromesh, clutch dampers, dual mass flywheels, auto-rev-match to name a few). But their interface with the driver has remained fairly constant (H-pattern shifter and a clutch). And it is that interface that most 6MT advocates are attached to IMO. And this is why they resent DCT, because it changes how they communicate with the car, even if the car's response itself is not altered or even improved with DCT. For my part, I have done so many MT gear changes, blips and heel-and-toes, that it has become a second nature; I don't even need to "think" about it when I do it anymore, so I don't find rowing my own gears to be that much more "engaging".

I have to admit, when ordering my M4, I pondered a very long time between the DCT and 6MT. Not because I wanted to row my own gears, but because I was not sure which offered the best total performance package (I have a long thread on this). And even to this day, I am pretty convinced that on the F8X, the DCT does not offer as much of an advantage as it did on the E9X.

And I take all those comments about "not caring for those few tenths of second" from most of the MT crowd with tongue in cheek. Why do they add JB4 and downpipes and intakes just to gain those few tenths back .

All that being said, there are many who pick the DCT because it manages the whole gear change/selection process for them. In their case, they do pick DCT because it is an automatic.

Sorry for the long dissertation, hopefully some will find it entertaining in that quiet "no new news" period .

The BMW Steptronic 8 Speed (which is sourced from ZF) does have a direct mechanical connection. Once the car is underway the torque converter is locked out by a clutch that directly connects the engine to the transmission.
A friend of mine tested a Porsche Cayman with a DCT and a Jaguar F-Type with a ZF Automatic for Road and Track. He told me he did not find much of a difference between the PDK (DCT) in the Cayman and the ZF planetary gear automatic in the Jag. I have driven a Jaguar XF with the ZF AT back to back with my DCT M4 and to be honest I did not find much of a difference either.

And I agree with you that shifting an MT, double clutching, rev matching down shifts, etc. became second nature. I enjoy driving MTs but I do not feel board when I am driving a DCT.