6MT or DCT?

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by goneloco

I saw another post about left foot braking. But imo the pedals are too close to get both feet in there.

I installed an AT size brake pedal in my DCT M4.

It makes left foot braking easier.

[Frank_NJ]

I went manual transmission after having the DCT. Just didn't feel connected with the car with the dct. In my case family members and my fiance can drive a manual so no issue if they need to use the car.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

The BMW Steptronic 8 Speed (which is sourced from ZF) does have a direct mechanical connection. Once the car is underway the torque converter is locked out by a clutch that directly connects the engine to the transmission.
A friend of mine tested a Porsche Cayman with a DCT and a Jaguar F-Type with a ZF Automatic for Road and Track. He told me he did not find much of a difference between the PDK (DCT) in the Cayman and the ZF planetary gear automatic in the Jag. I have driven a Jaguar XF with the ZF AT back to back with my DCT M4 and to be honest I did not find much of a difference either.

And I agree with you that shifting an MT, double clutching, rev matching down shifts, etc. became second nature. I enjoy driving MTs but I do not feel board when I am driving a DCT.

While I agree that traditional automatics are bridging the gap, they still don't match the 6MT and DCT in terms of responsiveness. It is quite possible that with further progress, they will be able to render the DCT obsolete. But they are not there yet IMO.

I have recently driven a ZF 8AT in a 340i loaner, and found that disconnected feel still very present. Yes, there is a torque converter lock-up when driving at constant speeds, but in varying throttle conditions that direct connection is lost. Further, there is still a quite significant delay when requesting a gear and the actual shift. I have also test driven a C63 (with the 6.2l V8, I have not tried the new C63 yet) and also found the AMG MCT to be lacking in responsiveness, even if it skips the torque converter altogether. So I have to disagree with you and your friend. Just my humble opinion though .

[Sassicaia]

au·to·mat·ic
ˌôdəˈmadik/
adjective
(of a device or process) working by itself with little or no direct human control.



man·u·al
ˈmanyə(wə)l/
adjective
a thing operated or done by hand rather than automatically or electronically, in particular.

**runs and hides behind couch

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

the AMG MCT to be lacking in responsiveness, even if it skips the torque converter altogether.

I'd love to get your (test drive) thoughts on the new MCT, it's supposed to have mostly closed the DCT gap with Benz insisting that for efficiency and comfort it's a better choice for a daily driver with few sport compromises (while their GT gets the DCT).

Also the new E63 is supposed to be getting a sport version of their new 9-speed MCT, which is then supposed to be put in the C63S ... so clearly Benz is committed to the MCT technology for their 4 seaters and luxe cars.

[AIRPOWER]

Another reason why MT is better

Would-be carjacker foiled by stick shift http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/08...ick-shift.html

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

au·to·mat·ic
ˌôdəˈmadik/
adjective
(of a device or process) working by itself with little or no direct human control.

man·u·al
ˈmanyə(wə)l/
adjective
a thing operated or done by hand rather than automatically or electronically, in particular.

DCT (Double Clutch Transmission)
dee cee tee/
noun
the latest (some say superior) transmission technology that offers the user the advantages of both manual and automatic transmissions without the disadvantages of either.

[Sassicaia]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

DCT (Double Clutch Transmission)
dee cee tee/
noun
the latest (some say superior) transmission technology that offers the user the advantages of both manual and automatic transmissions without the disadvantages of either.

Just so I understand what you mean. You are saying tapping a paddle with your finger is the equivalent as shifting a manual transition modulating a clutch, gas and shifter?

You don't be believe that by taping a paddle the car is not "working by itself with little to no direct human control?"

If thats what you are saying I disagree because science.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

Just so I understand what you mean. You are saying tapping a paddle with your finger is the equivalent as shifting a manual transition modulating a clutch, gas and shifter?

You don't be believe that by taping a paddle the care is not "working by itself with little to no direct human control?"

If thats what you are saying I disagree because science.

I think it's called grasping at straws.

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

Just so I understand what you mean. You are saying tapping a paddle with your finger is the equivalent as shifting a manual transition modulating a clutch, gas and shifter?

You don't be believe that by taping a paddle the car is not "working by itself with little to no direct human control?"

If thats [sic] what you are saying I disagree because science.

Interpret it any way you want, I'm saying that I can change gears with my DCT and be just involved as I am when I drive my Z4 M Roadster and I learned that by driving 3,000 miles in two weeks during my Euro Delivery trip on just about any kind of road you can, including the Autobahn; windy, twisty mountain roads; city streets; and three different tracks. I drove it like a manual, and it responded like a manual. When I was driving through coastal towns during a holiday with stop-and-go traffic, I just put it in D.

Why don't you just stop putting down those that prefer the DCT as if your ability to shift a manual is somehow a superior skill set? The DCT in my M4 offers me the best of both worlds.

How much time do you actually have with a DCT? Any? Minutes? Hours? Days? If you don't have any real seat time with a DCT how can you possibly determine it's inferior to a manual transmission? Because you only need to use finger to shift? (You seem really hung up on that.)

I've probably been driving a manual since way before you were born and I probably have way more experience than you with a DCT, and probably way more experience on a track, and the DCT is my choice. Drive what you like and stop railing against the DCT like some born again christian spouting dogma. Why do you feel the need to prove your decision? I tried them both and I made my decision, and my decision is the only one that matters to me. You must think that I actually gave a crap what anyone else thought when I ordered my car.

[F83]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

Just so I understand what you mean. You are saying tapping a paddle with your finger is the equivalent as shifting a manual transition modulating a clutch, gas and shifter?

You don't be believe that by taping a paddle the car is not "working by itself with little to no direct human control?"

If thats what you are saying I disagree because science.

+1. Look, I have no complaint with those that choose the DCT vs 6MT. Not for me but lots of reasons to do it. If you want pure performance it is - unambiguously - the better choice. These are all great cars.

But this argument that "Hey the DCT is really a MANUAL transmission not an automatic"....

Yes I understand the "within the transmission" reason why that has "technical" validity, but it doesn't have real world validity. It is not a manual transmission in the cultural sense of the word with heel/toe shifting, clutch/throttle modulation, and just a feeling that all four limbs are actively engaged at all times.

Again, not knocking the DCT - at all. Just making the point that it is NOT a manual.

[landshark99]

For me the funny thing about the idea that the MT is somehow a purer connection to the car is not true anymore. Every manual today has some form of hill control, rev matching and clutch boost, the only direct connection to the car is the shift lever itself and even that many times is done with cables.
I drove manuals for years even with my trucks, I just now prefer the more advanced connection of the DCT, but feel free to enjoy your MTs

[Sassicaia]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

Interpret it any way you want, I'm saying that I can change gears with my DCT and be just involved as I am when I drive my Z4 M Roadster and I learned that by driving 3,000 miles in two weeks during my Euro Delivery trip on just about any kind of road you can, including the Autobahn; windy, twisty mountain roads; city streets; and three different tracks. I drove it like a manual, and it responded like a manual. When I was driving through coastal towns during a holiday with stop-and-go traffic, I just put it in D.

Why don't you just stop putting down those that prefer the DCT as if your ability to shift a manual is somehow a superior skill set? The DCT in my M4 offers me the best of both worlds.

How much time do you actually have with a DCT? Any? Minutes? Hours? Days? If you don't have any real seat time with a DCT how can you possibly determine it's inferior to a manual transmission? Because you only need to use finger to shift? (You seem really hung up on that.)

I've probably been driving a manual since way before you were born and I probably have way more experience than you with a DCT, and probably way more experience on a track, and the DCT is my choice. Drive what you like and stop railing against the DCT like some born again christian spouting dogma. Why do you feel the need to prove your decision? I tried them both and I made my decision, and my decision is the only one that matters to me. You must think that I actually gave a crap what anyone else thought when I ordered my car.

Who's putting anyone down? Can you quote any specific thing from any post I made that puts someone down?

Certainly I'm debating the merits of the argument that DCT is in effect automatic by sheer definition whether in "manual" mode or automatic.

The argument of "I've been driving manual since before you were born" doesn't work here. I bought my first manual car in 1994, so even if you drove manual before that the argument is moot give the years of experience.

Saying your experience driving "manual" with a DCT responded like a manual is factually untrue. While the car might go from one gear to the next with DCT the similarity between manual and DCT ends there. A manual requires manual input with clutch, gas and shifter a DCT only requires taping a paddle. You don't need to change anything on the throttle, engage and dissangage a clutch, or shift a manual gear box.

You ask if I have driven DCT (I have), but I think what a lot of people here who this thread are wondering is if you have ever actually driven a manual?

There reason I'm enjoying debating this topic in this thread is because this thread is the place to due so (hence the tittle DCT vs Manual).

The real question is why are you taking this personal, and asking someone in a thread dedicated to debating the differences to stop doing so?

Happy with your purchase? Great! This thread isn't about if you are happy, this thread is discussing/debating DCT vs Manual. As long as anyone tries to say they are the same I'm happy to debate that. I find it easy because science and engineering is on my side. Seems like hope, wishing only opinions are on the other.

[Sassicaia]

Originally Posted by landshark99

For me the funny thing about the idea that the MT is somehow a purer connection to the car is not true anymore. Every manual today has some form of hill control, rev matching and clutch boost, the only direct connection to the car is the shift lever itself and even that many times is done with cables.
I drove manuals for years even with my trucks, I just now prefer the more advanced connection of the DCT, but feel free to enjoy your MTs

No question many things about manual transmissions today are more automatic then those from decades ago. That said the automatic aspects only make up 5-10% of the manual control needed and are mostly based on comfort.

If yesterday manuals are a mile away from today's, then DCT manuals are 100s of miles away.

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

You ask if I have driven DCT (I have), but I think what a lot of people here who this thread are wondering is if you have ever actually driven a manual

This sentence doesn't even make sense grammatically.

But I think what you're saying is that a "lot of people here are are wondering if I've ever actually driven a manual." I actually doubt whether anyone else here besides you is wondering whether I have ever actually driven a manual. Oh, and nice deflection there, asking me if I've ever driven a manual, while not answering how much you've drive a DCT for comparison.

But just for the record, I learned how to drive a manual on a tractor when I was 13. No syncros. Ever done that? I bought my first car when I was 15 and it was a manual. I've driven manuals for over 50 years now, every car that I've owned since I was 21 has been a manual. My wife has a 335is Coupe with a manual, and every car that she's owned has been a manual, she's never owned an automatic. I've driven every car that she's owned. You may have missed the fact that I also have a Z4 M Roadster which only came with a manual, as did the S2000 that I bought new before that and had for 13 years. Every single car that I've owned in the last 44 years has been a manual. And every single car I've driven on the track for the last 20 years has been a manual. Yeah, I think I've driven a few manuals. But I love my DCT! And I've driven a few M3s, M4s, and M5s with DCT on a few tracks as well.

P.S. Can you rev-match downshift? (And not in your M, that does that, wait for it, automatically!) How about heel/toe downshift? If you can't do that consistently, on a track, at every corner, then your manual skills ain't crap. And yeah, I've done that. A lot.

[landshark99]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

Who's putting anyone down? Can you quote any specific thing from any post I made that puts someone down?

Certainly I'm debating the merits of the argument that DCT is in effect automatic by sheer definition whether in "manual" mode or automatic.

The argument of "I've been driving manual since before you were born" doesn't work here. I bought my first manual car in 1994, so even if you drove manual before that the argument is moot give the years of experience.

Saying your experience driving "manual" with a DCT responded like a manual is factually untrue. While the car might go from one gear to the next with DCT the similarity between manual and DCT ends there. A manual requires manual input with clutch, gas and shifter a DCT only requires taping a paddle. You don't need to change anything on the throttle, engage and dissangage a clutch, or shift a manual gear box.

You ask if I have driven DCT (I have), but I think what a lot of people here who this thread are wondering is if you have ever actually driven a manual?

There reason I'm enjoying debating this topic in this thread is because this thread is the place to due so (hence the tittle DCT vs Manual).

The real question is why are you taking this personal, and asking someone in a thread dedicated to debating the differences to stop doing so?

Happy with your purchase? Great! This thread isn't about if you are happy, this thread is discussing/debating DCT vs Manual. As long as anyone tries to say they are the same I'm happy to debate that. I find it easy because science and engineering is on my side. Seems like hope, wishing only opinions are on the other.

The only real difference is the use your foot instead of the computer to activate the clutch. Shifting paddles and deciding the gear selection is very similar to shifting the manual shift lever, modulating the gas pedal is almost exactly the same, the difference is how the clutches work and the gear set up. The reason the DCT is faster is that no matter what gear you are in, the transmission has the next upper and lower gears ready to go instantly. In fact it is basically two transmissions in one with 1,3,5,7 in one and the other with 2,4,6. Depending on the design of the DCT you have a more or less manual feel. In my GTR in R mode the car will not shift unless you do, even when hitting the rev limiter.
Every one has their own preference pick the one you enjoy more.

[Sassicaia]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

This sentence doesn't even make sense grammatically


But I think what you're saying is that a "lot of people here are are wondering if I've ever actually driven a manual." .

yup thats what I meant. Typing in hurry.

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

acutaly doubt whether anyone else here besides you is wondering whether I have ever actually driven a manual.

You said DCT responded the same as manual, so yes I think a lot of people would wonder if you have ever driven a manual with a statement like this. If there were the same why would BMW offer the different options?

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

and nice deflection there, asking me if I've ever driven a manual, while not answering how much you've drive a DCT for comparison.

no deflection. I have driven DCT enough to know. Maybe 2 hours worth? Dont need more then that. Id say you wouldnt need more then a few hours driving manual either to know that DCT is essentially automatic in "manual" mode compared to a true manual transition.

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

just for the record, I learned how to drive a manual on a tractor when I was 13. No syncros. Ever done that?

Nope, never. Relevance?

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

I bought my first car when I was 15 and it was a manual. I've driven manuals for over 50 years now, every car that I've owned since I was 21 has been a manual. My wife has a 335is Coupe with a manual, and every car that she's owned has been a manual, she's never owned an automatic. I've driven every car that she's owned. You may have missed the fact that I also have a Z4 M Roadster which only came with a manual, as did the S2000 that I bought new before that and had for 13 years. Every single car that I've owned in the last 44 years has been a manual. And every single car I've driven on the track for the last 20 years has been a manual. Yeah, I think I've driven a few manuals. But I love my DCT! And I've driven a few M3s, M4s, and M5s with DCT on a few tracks as well.

All that is great, and only makes me wonder even more just how its possible for you to come to the conclusion that DCT manual is essentially like a manual transition. I think the exact word you used is "responds" like a manual? Im even more amazed at that assessment based on your experience with manual cars.

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

P.S. Can you rev-match downshift? (And not in your M, that does that, wait for it, automatically!) How about heel/toe downshift? If you can't do that consistently, on a track, at every corner, then your manual skills ain't crap. And yeah, I've done that. A lot.

My rev matching is sloppy at best. Id rate it a 2 out of 10. I might be the only person on bimmerpost who isnt a master at rev matching. Again, i have to wonder what the relevance of my ability to rev match is to this debate? Doesnt matter if you can heel toe with your toung and ear...that doesnt make DCT in manual mode even remotely similar to a manual transmission.

[F83]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

This sentence doesn't even make sense grammatically.

But I think what you're saying is that a "lot of people here are are wondering if I've ever actually driven a manual." I actually doubt whether anyone else here besides you is wondering whether I have ever actually driven a manual. Oh, and nice deflection there, asking me if I've ever driven a manual, while not answering how much you've drive a DCT for comparison.

But just for the record, I learned how to drive a manual on a tractor when I was 13. No syncros. Ever done that? I bought my first car when I was 15 and it was a manual. I've driven manuals for over 50 years now, every car that I've owned since I was 21 has been a manual. My wife has a 335is Coupe with a manual, and every car that she's owned has been a manual, she's never owned an automatic. I've driven every car that she's owned. You may have missed the fact that I also have a Z4 M Roadster which only came with a manual, as did the S2000 that I bought new before that and had for 13 years.

P.S. Can you rev-match downshift? (And not in your M, that does that, wait for it, automatically!) How about heel/toe downshift? If you can't do that consistently, on a track, at every corner, then your manual skills ain't crap. And yeah, I've done that. A lot.

Yeah but it doesn't look like you've driven an F8X 6MT so with all due respect you know nothing Jon Snow.



Yes of course I am having fun with you. Good manual chops for sure. I have also driven an old tractor in my youth. Good fun but not much that I would transfer from that to a car.

FYI, Sport+ mode on the 6MT (which most 6MT drivers I know drive in) turns off rev matching so it's heel/toe all day long. Or... Left side of foot, right side of foot to be exact but don't get me going on THAT debate!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

Just so I understand what you mean. You are saying tapping a paddle with your finger is the equivalent as shifting a manual transition modulating a clutch, gas and shifter?

You don't be believe that by taping a paddle the car is not "working by itself with little to no direct human control?"

If thats what you are saying I disagree because science.

You're modulating a throttle that is only a "rheostat" that sends an electronic signal to the engine that has all sorts of electronic filters and dampers that automatically modify your input. The clutch you are "modulating" is damped through hydraulic means, so that modulation is partially automated. The shifter you are moving automatically synchronizes the speeds of the gears so that the dogs and gears can engage without human intervention.

It's not that black and white. Folks focus too much on the controls (pedal and shifter vs paddle) and not enough on what is happening behind the scene .

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

P.S. Can you rev-match downshift? (And not in your M, that does that, wait for it, automatically!) How about heel/toe downshift? If you can't do that consistently, on a track, at every corner, then your manual skills ain't crap. And yeah, I've done that. A lot.

Why yes - yes I can. My M doesn't do that automatically in Sport + because it just doesn't, and doesn't do that in Sport or Comfort because it can be coded out. So that silly argument is a wasted point.

I learned to heal and toe in the 80s - my mother had 5 brothers, and 4 of them were racing drivers. Used to drive Lolas, Brabhams etc and I've seen pictures of them on the grid with Jackie Stewart and other famous names from those days - so I presume they knew what they were doing, and taught me properly.

[Sassicaia]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You're modulating a throttle that is only a "rheostat" that sends an electronic signal to the engine that has all sorts of electronic filters and dampers that automatically modify your input. The clutch you are "modulating" is damped through hydraulic means, so that modulation is partially automated. The shifter you are moving automatically synchronizes the speeds of the gears so that the dogs and gears can engage without human intervention.

It's not that black and white. Folks focus too much on the controls (pedal and shifter vs paddle) and not enough on what is happening behind the scene .

That doesnt mean you can't Fck it up if you dont do it right, or create better result if you do.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It's not that black and white. Folks focus too much on the controls (pedal and shifter vs paddle) and not enough on what is happening behind the scene .

VERY TRUE.

Because, what you do with the controls is the MANUAL part - i.e. the pedal(s - more than one if you're doing it properly) and shifter is rather manual, as opposed to the paddle which is akin to using the blinker.

The AUTOMATIC part is happening behind the scenes - which is 99% of what happens with a DCT. Sure there are assistant devices for the MT - but there's 100 times as much manual input as there is for a DCT.

I don't know why DCT drivers can't accept that there's a big difference, and just not try to claim that "its much the same as driving a manual". That's like saying pressing the button on your wife's vibrator is much the same as having sex with her... it's just not.