M4 loses control leaving Cars and Coffee, hits median, gets airborne. Owner explains.

[stuka]

Originally Posted by Mark

You know, i'm sorry, but people ripping OP apart should think twice. I cant help but think many are talking out of their asses.

Having been lucky enough to drive some seriously powerful (500+hp) RWD "drivers" cars, there are times that a car can get squirmy if you aren't paying attention. Its just the nature of extremly powerful car, RWD and torque that comes on very fast. I really can't fault OP for that; having been in those situations myself.

Well, the RWD car control should be so ingrained that it's second nature. And if not, really, a few autox events, some car control clinics, or even HPDE, all of which most BMWCCA chapters put on throughout the year, should be the first "mod" that anyone buying these cars should do before getting Dinan to put another 100 or 2 HP's on the car.

One of the fun factors of powerful RWD to me is being able to turn using the throttle.

I would call the super non linear 996 GT2 that I had a handful, actually, so was the 556HP supercharged CTSV, or the E39 M5, etc. But any of these cars at such slow speed in first gear really is not a big deal to handle, with just some minimal amount of training seat time.

Originally Posted by Mark

OP even admits hes coming from AWD Audis where the cars dont exactly break traction at will.

Should OP have done things differently? sure. Should he having been paying more attention? sure. But I can guarantee you, many of you, if you are lucky enough to be driving these types of cars may find yourself in some situation you wished you werent in. OP was just unlucky to have it on video, but owned up to it and laid it all out for us, for better or worse

Sorry, the post was a bunch of incomprehensible excuses. It was a simple throttle on oversteer that should have been easily corrected.

The video showed that he was too late to correct, which stems from lack of training. He needs to sign up for some autox and car control classes, no if's and but's.

[3002 tii]

Didn't read all 13 pages but seems like there's a good balance of those blasting OP and others coming to his defense. Personally don't care to argue whether or not OP's actions were immature or not.

I think the bigger point is underground street racer or the next Lewis Hamilton or NOT, keep the traction control on for public roads. You have NOTHING to gain by turning it off because if you find it limiting in any sense, chances are you're driving too recklessly for public roads. Only time you should turn it off is if you find the power cutting out in snowy conditions and you're experiencing wheel slip. Else save it for the track (read NOT parking lot nor your local windy roads).

[jqmunro]

This car has a tremendous amount of torque and requires a great amount of attention to drive safely, especially without traction control. Be safe and know your limits is the name of the game!

[grimlock]

Steering points one way, rear wheels could slide either way depending on grip difference and direction car is traveling. Correct as appropriate.
Best to understand this concept well before trying with large HP or under risky conditions.

[crqflier]

Originally Posted by Deviant

Extremely well said. I totally agree.

His first tome was full of excuses and no real ownership. Should have read "Driver error. Sorry. Won't happen again." Everything else is crap. Lessons? Learning? How about don't push the button then jump on the skinny pedal unless you're ready for the consequences. Whatever. Thankful there were no injuries.

[SapphireSiC]

I agree, this guy could have steered his way out of it but it happened to Roberto Guerrero in '92 Indy. He was pole sitter
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgEOjxzrR10 3:14

[Mark]

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

Didn't read all 13 pages but seems like there's a good balance of those blasting OP and others coming to his defense. Personally don't care to argue whether or not OP's actions were immature or not.

I think the bigger point is underground street racer or the next Lewis Hamilton or NOT, keep the traction control on for public roads. You have NOTHING to gain by turning it off because if you find it limiting in any sense, chances are you're driving too recklessly for public roads. Only time you should turn it off is if you find the power cutting out in snowy conditions and you're experiencing wheel slip. Else save it for the track (read NOT parking lot nor your local windy roads).

So so so so so true....

[puma1552]

Originally Posted by stuka

The only lesson to be learned here is that the traction systems have raised a generation of drivers who couldn't countersteeer themselves out of a paper bag.

Those of us who cut out teeth on 90's RWD cars, think 300ZX, SupraTT, 95 M3, RX7, Mustang, Camaro of the same era. all learned very quickly RWD car control skills. Because if you didn't, you will end up in a ditch or wrapped around a telephone pole at the first corner out of a dealership.

Sorry, it was a super simple first gear oversteer, and it is inexcusable that such a simple skill is no longer found in most drivers today.

Go find an empty parking lot and spend a few afternoons and learn the very very basic of RWD car control before skyrocketing the F8x insurance rate on everyone.

Well said, and exactly what I alluded to in my earlier post about learning to drive on a car with no traction control or even ABS - it was a Camaro of the era with an anemic 170 hp V8 on a 215 tire with drum brakes out back. Even that turd can get you in trouble on a wet road without goosing it too much.

[hyperboost]

this thread has been a very POPULAR topic today. Jalopnik, other social media and people talking about it at work.
i don't have any other comment besides just don't do it again.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by chiplee

Is the steering "rate" increased in sport and sport+ or just the weight? Are the gains increased in other words?

We should just drill down on what (other than not show boating in the first place) might have prevented this. We should also make sure people participating in this thread come away with something that makes them less likely to make the same mistake/misjudgment.

For starters, in the Trinim3's "owning up" post he talks about the back end kicking out because the right rear spun faster than the left. I didn't think it worked that way. Can anyone elaborate? My understanding is the closer the wheels are to spinning at the same rate the faster the rear end will try to get to the front. Same for locked rear tires. Locked or spinning tires always try to lead the vehicle, or am I mistaken?

You can't learn how not to do this by reading on a forum. You have to get in a car and drive it with the rear end loose. You can get the basics, but there's no replacement for seat time.

The only reason your car goes in a straight line is because of your tires' lateral grip. When a tire spins, it's friction coefficient drops like a rock. Once that happens, it's like your rear end is sliding around on ice. There's no more lateral grip. No amount of differential lock can cause a car to go in a precisely straight line once the rears are spinning. You have to correct with steering, and you have to have a very precise feel for your slip angle. This takes experience. Lots of it.

Want to take something away from this thread? Don't do burnouts on public streets. You might get it right 50% of the time, but eventually something like this (or worse) will happen and you'll be left with nothing but regret.

[drifts500]

Originally Posted by crqflier

His first tome was full of excuses and no real ownership. Should have read "Driver error. Sorry. Won't happen again." Everything else is crap. Lessons? Learning? How about don't push the button then jump on the skinny pedal unless you're ready for the consequences. Whatever. Thankful there were no injuries.

+1

He said he is a professional driver, and graduated from Formula School

[SapphireSiC]

Originally Posted by puma1552

Well said, and exactly what I alluded to in my earlier post about learning to drive on a car with no traction control or even ABS - it was a Camaro of the era with an anemic 170 hp V8 on a 215 tire with drum brakes out back. Even that turd can get you in trouble on a wet road without goosing it too much.

100% agree. Floored a 96 camaro turning left at a stop sign in the rain and spun 270. Made note to self--don't do that again. BTW it was 285 hp

[tmo24]

Safety Recall: BMW recalls all M4 vehicles due to rear end snapping wildly out of control under hard straight line acceleration. All owners of M4 vehicles manufactured after October 2014 will be part of the 2015 BMW Buy Back program due to tire PSI discrepancies. Any vehicle that has been operated outside of the +/- 1 PSI threshold has been proven to turn violently to the left when steering wheel is kept straight under hard acceleration.




*2015 BMW Buy Back program is null and void if vehicle was operated at WOT during 5,000 mile break in period. In this case, there will still be a recall but the grommet between the driver seat and steering wheel will be replaced free of charge.

[dclowd9901]

Originally Posted by Lups

Yes, you get shit from all of us, since we're indeed perfect.

I posted my comment earlier without reading the whole thing through, and I left it on just to be an adult for once.

Yes, you fucked up, but unlike so many others here, it ended up online. That being said, I know many, many others who have done this or even worse already, but never had to face the forum for it. I would say based on the clip and circumstances told by you, this will happen again to someone else too. We go to carmeets, and sometimes circumstances are forgotten.

I never wrote it here, but on a country lane, going way too fast as usual in Tennessee, it was a mix of pure luck and more luck than skill that I didn't wrap my car on my first week with it. I was coming from a bend and saw a rock on the road, and thanked my lucky stars I didn't use the brakes, since the asphalt had sand on it. I've never been so happy about learning to drive in Finland as i was after that experience.

Each of us has probably done something stupid with theirs already, we just were lucky enough it didn't end up on tape.

I'll throw my uncaught fuck up story in:

In Europe, we were about to take the new M3 out for dinner in Monschau. The hotel we were at had a nice parking lot. As we were backing out, my fiancée warned me about a curb. Thinking she was referring to the small 2 inch dip between the lot pavement and the road, I thanked her but dismissed her concern.

Moments later, the tail end of my car dropped straight off the curb, which was at least 6 inches high. A cold rush came over me as I was sure I just high sided my brand new beautiful car on this curb.

I rushed to look and see if the car was sitting on its frame. Luckily it seemed there was just enough gap to, well, do something.

Couldn't find any wood or chocks around so I used the torque to drive right back over the curb. I was mortified at the time, but it seems my car has suffered zero ill effects.

I've never told anyone, but I hope we can all stop pretending we're perfect.

[The long haul]

Originally Posted by stuka

The only lesson to be learned here is that the traction systems have raised a generation of drivers who couldn't countersteeer themselves out of a paper bag.

Those of us who cut out teeth on 90's RWD cars, think 300ZX, SupraTT, 95 M3, RX7, Mustang, Camaro of the same era. all learned very quickly RWD car control skills. Because if you didn't, you will end up in a ditch or wrapped around a telephone pole at the first corner out of a dealership.

Sorry, it was a super simple first gear oversteer, and it is inexcusable that such a simple skill is no longer found in most drivers today.

Go find an empty parking lot and spend a few afternoons and learn the very very basic of RWD car control before skyrocketing the F8x insurance rate on everyone.

Damn good point. I remember when I was young I had an oh shit moment and went off road because of it. Fast forward to last winter when I was toying with my Maserati. I thought it was clear outside. It was cold and roads were clear. I was gentle first 10 miles and on a back county road. Decided to boot it at 60 and as soon as boost came on I was sideways. Had I not had my experience I did was i was younger id have totaled my old Maser. Instead I immediately pushed in the clutch, kept off the brakes and put in the right amount of steering and had a high heart rate. It was a similar snap oversteer as trini had but at a much higher rate of speed on 205 r compound tires on a 13 degree day. It was stupid, and im no Chris Harris but I kept my cool and made it home.

[Moo]

This sort of shenanigans only add fuel to the BMW driver stereotype

[Noobish]

Originally Posted by Lups

We all know he fucked up, he knows he fucked up. I can't understand this need to beat a man when he's down.

I happen to know many from here who have done worse. I hear from these since I've made many irl friends here. We all have seen the clip. Why not take this as a learning experience and stop this slaughter? I can't believe all the rest of us are perfect enough to act like this.

+1
Theres no need to keep going on with the sh!t storm you guys make it out to be.
BimmerPost forums are full perfect human beings. /S

[Wei718]

This thread should be locked already especially with all the trolls coming in here just to bash on OP.

[kstore]

Originally Posted by dmk08

Not to be insensitive but can someone put the video to Dukes of Hazard theme?

[rr006rbc]

Hope you learned something buddy..good job.

[bradleyland]

I just want to chime in to say that I am not in the camp with stuka, puma, and all the others here who are lecturing the guy about car control. Professional drivers regularly spin cars when driven at the limit. You can't drive a car beyond its limits and not increase your accident rate. It's plain and simple physics.

I really do feel for trinim3, because I've been there. I drove my VR6 GTI over a median because I panicked after pulling out in front of a high-speed chase. Literally pulled out in to the road when a guy was doing 100+ MPH with a state trooper following him. I just gassed it and drove RIGHT over a median, just like this guy. I felt like a fucking moron. I was a fucking moron. I didn't clear the roadway before entering it. I assumed that everyone would be driving normally, and didn't look carefully for traffic to my left. I could write three paragraphs offering an argument about how it wasn't my fault, but I was behind the wheel, and there's no reason I couldn't have taken just a short moment to look carefully rather than pull a "California stop". Fortunately, it was 17 years ago, and YouTube didn't even exist

The point is, no one is perfect. That's not the last dumb thing I did behind the wheel. I try to be honest with myself though, and I think that helps me avoid dumb mistakes.

[The long haul]

Originally Posted by kstore

I feel like a totally insensitive dick, but I'm only human. I'm in a total state of extreme laughter