6MT or DCT?

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Circuit Hunter

What you fail to understand is that a good driver is a good driver regardless of the transmission.

And that same good driver is hobbled by his vehicle's input controls via an inferior transmission like an MT. It's a not a debate, it's just a fact. MT is a slow archaic transmission - that doesn't mean it isn't fun or involving, they are! That doesn't mean you can't race them, you can!

It just means a good driver will always be faster in a DCT - if they're not, then they're not a good driver.

I bet captainaudio has vinyl albums. They're fun! It's a physical disk you have to extract from its case that has cool cover art, evokes nostalgia, and makes just playing the opening note of a single track a whole experience; clicking a button isn't close to that experience and doesn't come near setting the mood for the music, which after all is an emotional experience.

All of that said, no physical analog media (vinyl, tapes) can reproduce the physical sound better than good digital.

So MT vs DCT really isn't a debate, it's a choice of values:

* I prioritize the experience of creating speed - get the MT

* I prioritize the experience of ultimate speed - get the DCT

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

And that same good driver is hobbled by his vehicle's input controls via an inferior transmission like an MT. It's a not a debate, it's just a fact. MT is a slow archaic transmission - that doesn't mean it isn't fun or involving, they are! That doesn't mean you can't race them, you can!

It just means a good driver will always be faster in a DCT - if they're not, then they're not a good driver.

I bet captainaudio has vinyl albums. They're fun! It's a physical disk you have to extract from its case that has cool cover art, evokes nostalgia, and makes just playing the opening note of a single track a whole experience; clicking a button isn't close to that experience and doesn't come near setting the mood for the music, which after all is an emotional experience.

All of that said, no physical analog media (vinyl, tapes) can reproduce the physical sound better than good digital.

So MT vs DCT really isn't a debate, it's a choice of values:

* I prioritize the experience of creating speed - get the MT

* I prioritize the experience of ultimate speed - get the DCT

I got rid of my vinyl albums a number of years ago and no longer own a turntable. I recently transferred my entire CD collection to a Brennan B2 using FLAC lossless compression.

http://www.thebrennan.com

[Circuit Hunter]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

And that same good driver is hobbled by his vehicle's input controls via an inferior transmission like an MT. It's a not a debate, it's just a fact. MT is a slow archaic transmission - that doesn't mean it isn't fun or involving, they are! That doesn't mean you can't race them, you can!

It just means a good driver will always be faster in a DCT - if they're not, then they're not a good driver.

I bet captainaudio has vinyl albums. They're fun! It's a physical disk you have to extract from its case that has cool cover art, evokes nostalgia, and makes just playing the opening note of a single track a whole experience; clicking a button isn't close to that experience and doesn't come near setting the mood for the music, which after all is an emotional experience.

All of that said, no physical analog media (vinyl, tapes) can reproduce the physical sound better than good digital.

So MT vs DCT really isn't a debate, it's a choice of values:

* I prioritize the experience of creating speed - get the MT

* I prioritize the experience of ultimate speed - get the DCT

I don't think anyone is arguing with that. The DCT plain and simple is the faster transmission. I've owned two cars with them although my 2014 GTR tranny is much slower than the BMW DCT. And before I put a trans cooler in the GTR every manual car would pass me once the car went into limp mode on a hot track day.

My argument is you believe you are faster than manual drivers on a track because you have DCT. That's a bold statement, but if it makes you feel better that's cool.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Circuit Hunter

I don't think anyone is arguing with that. The DCT plain and simple is the faster transmission. I've owned two cars with them although my 2014 GTR tranny is much slower than the BMW DCT. And before I put a trans cooler in the GTR every manual car would pass me once the car went into limp mode on a hot track day.

My argument is you believe you are faster than manual drivers on a track because you have DCT. That's a bold statement, but if it makes you feel better that's cool.

I think the point is that given two cars that are identical except that one has an MT and the other has a DCT a skilled driver will be faster around the track in the DCT. That does not imply that having a DCT will make you faster around the track than a driver in an MT. I regularly see expert drivers in Spec Miatas with MTs turning faster lap times than some drivers in M3/4s regardless of which transmission the M has.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Circuit Hunter

IMy argument is you believe you are faster than manual drivers on a track because you have DCT. That's a bold statement, but if it makes you feel better that's cool

yup, cap'n has it right.

and beyond that, and beyond the track, there are real roads mille miglia style and in mountains with vertical hairpins, chicains, and switch backs it becomes humanly impossible to keep up to a good DCT paddle shifter ... although of course that depends on the course and the car and its powerband.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I think the point is that given two cars that are identical except that one has an MT and the other has a DCT a skilled driver will be faster around the track in the DCT. That does not imply that having a DCT will make you faster around the track than a driver in an MT. I regularly see expert drivers in Spec Miatas with MTs turning faster lap times than some drivers in M3/4s regardless of which transmission the M has.

^ This

[03evoIII]

I’ve driven m/t in my all but one (it was a piece purpose built drag car though) of my sports cars and I have to say that I love the DCT in my M3. This is my first M car and first BMW and I was on the fence initially about getting the DCT but so glad I did. This is especially true if you want to daily it and deal with traffic in your commute. That’s my .02 cents. 🙂
Scot

[M3GymNut]

Originally Posted by Circuit Hunter

That's not why this particular person chose the manual M2 over a DCT. Everyone knows that the DCT is the faster transmission apples for apples.

And that wasn't your point. In your first post that I responded to you stated that manuals are "sooo slow" on a road course. That's simply not true and misleading. Maybe for you they are. I'm marginally faster with a DCT. That's my point.

Lastly, how can you claim that you are faster than me on a road course? I don't know you and you don't know me...you may very well be faster than me but if so it wouldn't necessarily be because of the tranny. It would be because you are simply a better driver.

Don't feed the troll man.

[CarbonFiberCo]

Love the quickness and feel of DCT. More responsive and also much better for daily driving. Just my 2 cents

[kdu3]

I just swapped my 17 ZCP DCT for a 18 ZCP Manual. The DCT got boring after a while. It’s definitely faster and has shorter gear ratios. Overall it’s a fantastic transmission, but not as smooth as the PDK for example. I don’t think BMW struck the balance between harsh and fast. I’ll report back on the manual experience after the break in, but hopefully it’s more rewarding to drive overall.

[KakashiSenpai]

My E92 M3 was my first "automatic." Goodness what a great transmission it was!! Because the aggressive downshifts & amazing exhaust note, I couldn't find any reasons to not drive in M mode.

Once the M4 came out there was no question on what transmission I would pick - DCT! Owning the M4 for almost 3 years, with continuous daily driving & countless track days, I still have the same feeling as I did with my E92.

HOWEVER.. the "boredom" of the DCT did get a hold of me.. Solution? I decided to go back a few a generations & purchased an 06 E46 M3 for the days I get "bored" w/ DCT

[Howard_R]

Fixed it for you

Originally Posted by GrussGott

So MT vs DCT really isn't a debate, it's a choice of values:

* I prioritize the experience of not boring - get the MT

* I prioritize the experience of boring - get the DCT

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Howard_R

Fixed it for you

For daily use, that's true.

For sport drivers, I'll admit, all the winning can get boring

[jdarwin]

I recently purchased a 2018 M3 w/6mt. I sold my 2017 M2 w/DCT. The DCT is a fantastic option. I thought I would miss it. I haven't.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by jdarwin

I recently purchased a 2018 M3 w/6mt. I sold my 2017 M2 w/DCT. The DCT is a fantastic option. I thought I would miss it. I haven't.

you know what's interesting - my 2015 DCT was a fucking mule kick to the back of the head ... I drove an MT for a week and by about day 3 I was REALLY missing the DCT. These 2018 CPs though ... I"m not sure I could say the same. They're not as batshit.

I'd always take the DCT for performance reasons, but it also used to be for experience reasons. Now I'm not so sure. I think the MT control would be more fun in daily driving situations.

Daily driving: 2015 no contest, DCT. 2018, MT.

[Manbearpigbear]

Can someone please explain to me exactly how driving a manual is 10x more engaging than using paddles on the DCT? Instead of pressing a paddle, you move your foot little and push a lever, woopdidoo, does your pant bulge grow bigger now?

[Circuit Hunter]

Originally Posted by Manbearpigbear

Can someone please explain to me exactly how driving a manual is 10x more engaging than using paddles on the DCT? Instead of pressing a paddle, you move your foot little and push a lever, woopdidoo, does your pant bulge grow bigger now?

Can't be explained, has to be experienced. With that being said the DCT is a tremendous transmission.

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by Manbearpigbear

Can someone please explain to me exactly how driving a manual is 10x more engaging than using paddles on the DCT? Instead of pressing a paddle, you move your foot little and push a lever, woopdidoo, does your pant bulge grow bigger now?

For me, it has to do with using all 4 limbs in a more deliberate way of finessing power delivery of the whole package. Paddles are more of an on / off switch closely tied to the steering action, since your hands don't leave the wheel. There's no question DCT is faster. MT is just more engaging in the drive. That to me, makes it more fun.

[Manbearpigbear]

Originally Posted by Circuit Hunter

Can't be explained, has to be experienced. With that being said the DCT is a tremendous transmission.

Coming from 10+ years experience of driving manuals, I've experienced it enough. You're still paying attention to revs, shifting, just without needing to leave the steering wheel and focusing more on the turns.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

For me, it has to do with using all 4 limbs in a more deliberate way of finessing power delivery of the whole package. Paddles are more of an on / off switch closely tied to the steering action, since your hands don't leave the wheel. There's no question DCT is faster. MT is just more engaging in the drive. That to me, makes it more fun.

Building on this....the paddles get old real quick. A clutch is a temperamental bitch that requires finesse. Also I can sound cool in parking lots, increasing the bulge in my pants

[Evren]

DCT is more useful for me

[hinckley]

I think it's great that the MT take-up rate is over 50% on an enthusiasts' forum. Would love to really know what the rate is across all M3/4 buyers, but presumably it's under 20%.

One thing that we'll never get a truthful response to is - Of all the DCT drivers, what percent do not know how to drive a stick? I know only three people under 30 that ever learned.