Anyone else get banned from the G8X section for making fun of its looks?

[2011ninja]

Originally Posted by f80er

It always gets me the dudes who pronounce buying vs leasing like its some kind of badge of honor. Its such a stupid argument to be made.

Badge of honor?

I'm serious

Why should I lease over buy

I've not fully researched leasing.

I hear miles are restricted and penalized if you go over

You can't alter the car

So help me understand why I would lease

I'm serious

Projected value, miles it's all foreign to me

[f80er]

Originally Posted by 2011ninja

Badge of honor?

I'm serious

Why should I lease over buy

I've not fully researched leasing.

I hear miles are restricted and penalized if you go over

You can't alter the car

So help me understand why I would lease

I'm serious

Projected value, miles it's all foreign to me

Up to you my man what you want to do. I may have taken what you are saying the wrong way and if I did my bad.

[2011ninja]

Originally Posted by f80er

Up to you my man what you want to do. I may have taken what you are saying the wrong way and if I did my bad.

All good...

Serious though have not looked into it.

Any where I can look etc.?

I'm curious

Only thing I've read is TCO lease vs buy is exactly the same at 3 years.

At year 4 finance is less expensive than starting new lease.

I keep my cars for 5 years.

I had two cars; GTI and the F80.

Gave GTI to my brother cause I work from home. No need for a daily.

I know this is a non G80 thread but perhaps I should lease the G80.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by 2011ninja

Why should I lease over buy

I've not fully researched leasing.

I hear ...

Read those three lines again, then think, "what would a financially sophisticated person say? Do I sound like one? If not, should I be writing out opinions on financial matters?"

HINT: Everything you've "heard" is wrong in the for-every-complex-problem-there's-a-simple-solution-and-it's-wrong way.

EXTRA: There's only one scenario I can think of, given current rates, where it's not smarter to lease a BMW and that's if you're getting a PHEV or EV (because BMW is still eligible for the $7500 FTC which isn't available to lessees)

[paliknight]

Originally Posted by 2011ninja

All good...

Serious though have not looked into it.

Any where I can look etc.?

I'm curious

Only thing I've read is TCO lease vs buy is exactly the same at 3 years.

At year 4 finance is less expensive than starting new lease.

I keep my cars for 5 years.

I had two cars; GTI and the F80.

Gave GTI to my brother cause I work from home. No need for a daily.

I know this is a non G80 thread but perhaps I should lease the G80.

Example for F80 lease with an MSRP of 70k, selling price of 60k:

Lease: 0 down 750 monthly (10k miles/36 months) Is about 25,200. Let's say 27k ish factoring in fees and etc at lease return.

Finance: 60k @ 60 months is 1078 monthly. After 3 years it's about 38,800 paid. Selling it after 3 years you'll have about 25k remaining on loan. Worth maybe 40k-45k. So you'll get back about 20-25k.

38,800-25k= 23,800 estimated total paid before taxes at purchase.

Pros of leasing: depreciation is predetermined, no diminished value from accidents, easier to off load, less taxes (dependent on location), business write off.

Pros of financing: ownership, modifications can remain on vehicle, possibly cheaper.

Obviously these are very rough figures that are probably missing some hidden fees and other factors. Just an illustration.

The experts need to chime in and correct my work

[2011ninja]

Originally Posted by paliknight

Example for F80 lease with an MSRP of 70k, selling price of 60k:

Lease: 0 down 750 monthly (10k miles/36 months) Is about 25,200. Let's say 27k ish factoring in fees and etc at lease return.

Finance: 60k @ 60 months is 1078 monthly. After 3 years it's about 38,800 paid. Selling it after 3 years you'll have about 25k remaining on loan. Worth maybe 40k-45k. So you'll get back about 20-25k.

38,800-25k= 23,800 estimated total paid before taxes at purchase.

Pros of leasing: depreciation is predetermined, no diminished value from accidents, easier to off load, less taxes (dependent on location), business write off.

Pros of financing: ownership, modifications can remain on vehicle, possibly cheaper.

Obviously these are very rough figures that are probably missing some hidden fees and other factors. Just an illustration.

The experts need to chime in and correct my work

Originally Posted by paliknight

Example for F80 lease with an MSRP of 70k, selling price of 60k:

Lease: 0 down 750 monthly (10k miles/36 months) Is about 25,200. Let's say 27k ish factoring in fees and etc at lease return.

Finance: 60k @ 60 months is 1078 monthly. After 3 years it's about 38,800 paid. Selling it after 3 years you'll have about 25k remaining on loan. Worth maybe 40k-45k. So you'll get back about 20-25k.

38,800-25k= 23,800 estimated total paid before taxes at purchase.

Pros of leasing: depreciation is predetermined, no diminished value from accidents, easier to off load, less taxes (dependent on location), business write off.

Pros of financing: ownership, modifications can remain on vehicle, possibly cheaper.

Obviously these are very rough figures that are probably missing some hidden fees and other factors. Just an illustration.

The experts need to chime in and correct my work

Thanks man!

10,000

I drive 15k on avg

Can it still work for me

I put a lot of miles on

I did 17,000 one year

[R N M]

Originally Posted by 2011ninja

All good...

Serious though have not looked into it.

Any where I can look etc.?

I'm curious

Only thing I've read is TCO lease vs buy is exactly the same at 3 years.

At year 4 finance is less expensive than starting new lease.

I keep my cars for 5 years.

I had two cars; GTI and the F80.

Gave GTI to my brother cause I work from home. No need for a daily.

I know this is a non G80 thread but perhaps I should lease the G80.

Time to do some research.
Lots of benefits to leasing for those that do it.

My current F80 is owned but its not my daily.
My X3 M40i which is the family car is leased.

If you are a business owner - its even more of a no-brainer to lease.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by paliknight

Pros of financing: ownership, modifications can remain on vehicle, possibly cheaper.

None of those are pros of financing:

(1.) Ownership.
Well first, whether you finance or lease, the financier owns the car so the real question is who owns the risk? With financing it's you, with leasing it's the financier. Leasing is a sole-right-of-use for a single lease payment meaning with no risk of de-value/depreciation, *but with* the SOLE RIGHT OF USE & PURCHASE. Lessees can choose to buy-out their lease at any time (and when the used market is strong many do ... like the X5 market right now where lessees are buying out and selling on the used car market).

(2.) Mods.
Because of #1, the lessee can buy out at any time and sell the car. The only reason a lessee wouldn't want to buy-out is either to save time or because the lease is underwater for the lessor - that is, the lessee almost always wins* (i.e., you can lease-mod-buy-sell if don't want to pull the mods)

(3.) Cheaper financing.
Again, because of #1, leasing has full optionality vs. financing which doesn't - meaning the lessee is negotiating the sale price of their used car 3 years in advance (residual). *If the car devalues due to accident, or the market drops, the lessee wins. If the market strengthens the lessee can buy out and sell on the open market so the lessee wins again. If a cheaper loan rate comes by the lessee can buyout and finance, the lessee wins again.


*The caveat here, of course, is leasing depends on the upfront deal (MF & residual) from the lessor ... which over the last decade has been fantastic with BMW but not so much with other brands (and their financers). Simplified, BMW ensures the lessee always wins by transferring financial risk from the lessees to BMWFS which is in a better position to move the used vehicles around markets and/or leverage the financial arbitrage ... and in a large part offsetting the BMWFS risk by selling lease portfolio tranches to outside investors ... which also requires BMWFS to keep the lease numbers up so they can keep selling the returns which motivates their lower money factors. Other brands don't have the financial risk machine BMW does (because they don't want it!)

This is why it's almost always smarter to lease a BMW than finance or buy except in the case of PHEV/EVs where the incentives are easily into 5 figures (but that'll expire as soon as BMW hits the 200k in sales mark).

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by 2011ninja

I drive 15k on avg

Can it still work for me

I put a lot of miles on

I did 17,000 one year

With both leasing and loans you pay for the miles when you turn in the car or sell the car - In fact there has never been a case over the last 15 years where KBB mileage would've been cheaper for us than the lease mileage cost us. Can't speak for cars other than our M3/4s, but the leasing mileage costs aren't "extra", they're basically the used car mileage costs which, with BMW, you'll probably pay more for with a loan. (unless you're good at always finding idiots to sell your car too - personally I don't have the time for that)

Further, with a loan, you're also accepting the financial risk of both your car devaluing due to an accident and the market crashing. Leasing avoids those risks since you've already got a contracted buyer for your car: the lessor. (and you've already negotiated the sale price - the residual)

The loans-are-a-badge-of-honor people are living in the 70s ... which is odd because even then a car loan wasn't a badge of honor.

[2011ninja]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

With both leasing and loans you pay for the miles when you turn in the car or sell the car - In fact there has never been a case over the last 15 years where KBB mileage would've been cheaper for us than the lease mileage cost us. Can't speak for cars other than our M3/4s, but the leasing mileage costs aren't "extra" they're basically the used car mileage costs.

Further, with a loan you're also accepting the financial risk of from both your car devaluing due to an accident and the market crashing. Leasing avoids those risks.

The loans-are-a-badge-of-honor people are living in the 70s ... which is odd because even then a car loan wasn't a badge of honor.

Great points...

A good read for my finance compatriots from the 70's
It's a short read

https://www.consumerreports.org/buyi...ing-a-new-car/

[CT_M3]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

None of those are pros of financing:

(1.) Ownership.
Well first, whether you finance or lease, the financier owns the car so the real question is who owns the risk? With financing it's you, with leasing it's the financier. Leasing is a sole-right-of-use for a single lease payment meaning with no risk of de-value/depreciation, *but with* the SOLE RIGHT OF USE & PURCHASE. Lessees can choose to buy-out their lease at any time (and when the used market is strong many do ... like the X5 market right now where lessees are buying out and selling on the used car market).

(2.) Mods.
Because of #1, the lessee can buy out at any time and sell the car. The only reason a lessee wouldn't want to buy-out is either to save time or because the lease is underwater for the lessor - that is, the lessee almost always wins* (i.e., you can lease-mod-buy-sell if don't want to pull the mods)

(3.) Cheaper financing.
Again, because of #1, leasing has full optionality vs. financing which doesn't - meaning the lessee is negotiating the sale price of their used car 3 years in advance (residual). *If the car devalues due to accident, or the market drops, the lessee wins. If the market strengthens the lessee can buy out and sell on the open market so the lessee wins again. If a cheaper loan rate comes by the lessee can buyout and finance, the lessee wins again.


*The caveat here, of course, is leasing depends on the upfront deal (MF & residual) from the lessor ... which over the last decade has been fantastic with BMW but not so much with other brands (and their financers). Simplified, BMW ensures the lessee always wins by transferring financial risk from the lessees to BMWFS which is in a better position to move the used vehicles around markets and/or leverage the financial arbitrage ... and in a large part offsetting the BMWFS risk by selling lease portfolio tranches to outside investors ... which also requires BMWFS to keep the lease numbers up so they can keep selling the returns which motivates their lower money factors. Other brands don't have the financial risk machine BMW does (because they don't want it!)

This is why it's almost always smarter to lease a BMW than finance or buy except in the case of PHEV/EVs where the incentives are easily into 5 figures (but that'll expire as soon as BMW hits the 200k in sales mark).

Very good argument for leasing a new car GrussGott . I agree with your points AS long as a new car smell is what you crave. However, I think the equation changes when you decline to eat the depreciation.

From what I’ve seen, roughly, a 3 year old M depreciates about 35-40% of its new car value. Assuming a base price of about $80k, the leasee/new car buyer assumes that cost, in the case of the lease, it all depends on the residuals. That’s 30K over 3 years not even counting tax.

So if you consider cars, the bargains are to be hard about the 3-4 year mark. At this point, the M3 depreciates about 5-7% a year or $5K or so. Get the car, drive it and if you don’t like after a year, sell it. If you get a deal or time it right in a weak market, you can actually buy one and lose no money when you sell in a year. You do however as Gruss pointed out, assume the asset risk.

Another caveat leasing/getting a new car, is when LCIs or updates comes in. You feel like yesterday’s news. So the smart, patient buyer waits what they want and come in and scoop these cars.

BUT if you run a business, I’d just go lease and call it a day. The numbers change again in that case.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by CT_M3

I agree with your points AS long as a new car smell is what you crave. However, I think the equation changes when you decline to eat the depreciation.

Good point, buying used can get you a much better bargain in smiles/mile terms versus buying new where with, say, leasing, the question comes down to per use cost (and exclusive on-demand use).

I've always ordered new for the ED experience and in general don't have the patience for buying used ... and, of course, the easiest is writing a check if you don't care much about the risk but that always seems like leaving money on the table though man does it avoid hassle.

[f80er]

Can we forget about leasing vs buying and keep dumping on sedan_clan. Lol

[DML]

Originally Posted by 2011ninja

My friend said he was over on mileage with his infinite...

I'm like what? How you over on anything you paying for.

Funk that...

Hear ya, let's face it if you drive the crap out of something that you "OWN" after three years your car is worth approximately nothing, most likely before you finish payments.

[2011ninja]

Originally Posted by f80er

Can we forget about leasing vs buying and keep dumping on sedan_clan. Lol

My bad

😂

[paliknight]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

None of those are pros of financing:

(1.) Ownership.
Well first, whether you finance or lease, the financier owns the car so the real question is who owns the risk? With financing it's you, with leasing it's the financier. Leasing is a sole-right-of-use for a single lease payment meaning with no risk of de-value/depreciation, *but with* the SOLE RIGHT OF USE & PURCHASE. Lessees can choose to buy-out their lease at any time (and when the used market is strong many do ... like the X5 market right now where lessees are buying out and selling on the used car market).

(2.) Mods.
Because of #1, the lessee can buy out at any time and sell the car. The only reason a lessee wouldn't want to buy-out is either to save time or because the lease is underwater for the lessor - that is, the lessee almost always wins* (i.e., you can lease-mod-buy-sell if don't want to pull the mods)

(3.) Cheaper financing.
Again, because of #1, leasing has full optionality vs. financing which doesn't - meaning the lessee is negotiating the sale price of their used car 3 years in advance (residual). *If the car devalues due to accident, or the market drops, the lessee wins. If the market strengthens the lessee can buy out and sell on the open market so the lessee wins again. If a cheaper loan rate comes by the lessee can buyout and finance, the lessee wins again.


*The caveat here, of course, is leasing depends on the upfront deal (MF & residual) from the lessor ... which over the last decade has been fantastic with BMW but not so much with other brands (and their financers). Simplified, BMW ensures the lessee always wins by transferring financial risk from the lessees to BMWFS which is in a better position to move the used vehicles around markets and/or leverage the financial arbitrage ... and in a large part offsetting the BMWFS risk by selling lease portfolio tranches to outside investors ... which also requires BMWFS to keep the lease numbers up so they can keep selling the returns which motivates their lower money factors. Other brands don't have the financial risk machine BMW does (because they don't want it!)

This is why it's almost always smarter to lease a BMW than finance or buy except in the case of PHEV/EVs where the incentives are easily into 5 figures (but that'll expire as soon as BMW hits the 200k in sales mark).

I think you worded it eloquently and I half assed it

But those points are true, technically. I guess just mentally most buyers will look at it as black and white. Own it or rent it.

I agree with something someone wise once said, if it drives, flies, fucks or floats, lease it.

The mods thing though, I just meant most lessees will be returning at lease end and will most likely remove the mods before return, as opposed to someone financing where they're planning to keep long term so they keep them.

[paliknight]

Originally Posted by 2011ninja

Thanks man!

10,000

I drive 15k on avg

Can it still work for me

I put a lot of miles on

I did 17,000 one year

An M3 won't be worth a shit with almost 50k miles on it after 3 years. You can safely assume 50% depreciation after 3 years with that many miles.

I'd definitely lease. Dump it and run after 3 years.

[figure99]

Originally Posted by f80er

Can we forget about leasing vs buying and keep dumping on sedan_clan. Lol

Yes please... I had to check that I was in the right thread after not checking for a few days!

[paliknight]

Originally Posted by figure99

Yes please... I had to check that I was in the right thread after not checking for a few days!

Yeah I think sedan clan will be a die hard bmw fan even when the M3 becomes a German Tesla

[Sedan_Clan]

You guys need to focus on something other than another man. Lol! It's unhealthy!

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by paliknight

Yeah I think sedan clan will be a die hard bmw fan even when the M3 becomes a German Tesla

Actually if you paid any attention, you'd know I'm a diehard GT3 fanboy, NOT an M3/M4 fanboy.

As for BMW, it's really the only premium brand offering manual transmissions, so it doesn't really leave much competition....


...and no way in hell would I drive a Caddy.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

You guys need to focus on something other than another man. Lol! It's unhealthy!

You don't like us all up in yo grille?