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10-01-2012, 12:34 PM | #397 | |
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Mercedes Benz have big worries coming their way, they don't sell enough SMART's to offset the V8's/Maybach's. So I expect a big push with the A and B class cars, which to be fair has already started. They have also discontinued the mighty 6.2litre AMG63 engine in favour of a 5.5TT. Porsche of course are counted as VAG group I believe so they have a safe get out of sorts. Watch this space and see how many all electric/Hybrids come out over the next few years. |
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10-01-2012, 02:11 PM | #398 | |
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Dont be naive, the twin turbo 6 is to cut costs and improve the bottom line. Turbo is cheap power. |
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10-01-2012, 02:19 PM | #399 |
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that looks like it's going to be very costly when it's out of warranty and a hose cracks. YIKES
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10-01-2012, 02:58 PM | #400 | ||||
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This specific case is exactly the kind of apples to oranges case that does not really make a point. A much better comparison is a real world one where one compares engines of roughly equal peak power. There is no other apples to apples way to make a comparison. You never find an OEM who takes an existing engine and simply adds a turbo system (i.e. maintaining architecture and displacement). The displacement always goes down, typically a lot and with that torque is significantly reduced. You can't have the fuel efficiency benefits any other way. Quote:
However, again, for the nth time.. I still have faith that BMW has some good tricks up their sleeve that will make the engine an overall winner despite it being less special and more mass production. I highly doubt this. There are many variables more important than block length in crashworthiness. The strategy with all modern vehicles to deal with extreme frontal crash scenarios is to force the engine and transmission to move in a downward fashion in addition to rearward. The 2010 335 gets 4/5 stars from Motortrend (their source probably NHTSA) for frontal crash with its I6.
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10-01-2012, 03:02 PM | #401 |
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Big +1. I would love my existing M3 to have much better mpg and to pollute way less.
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10-01-2012, 03:05 PM | #402 | |
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My background is in math, physics and mechanical engineering. That does allow some insight well beyond a typical consumer/enthusiast. I think I have brought a great deal of technical insight to the readers of this forum over a many year period. Look up some of my posts and contributions and decide for yourself if I am an "expert". Cheers.
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10-01-2012, 04:23 PM | #403 | |
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Thing is you are just anti anything other than V8, not once have you conceded that anything other than V8 could be a good thing. You can say the S55 (or whatever it's name) is born due to costs, and yes of course that is a factor. There would be V8 (S65) backers within BMW (team in charge of the S65), obviously whatever concept they came up with was not as good a package as the N55 derived engine. |
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10-01-2012, 04:24 PM | #404 |
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Lets get hypothetical here....just suppose the discussion at BMW went like this.....
We have xx million to develop a brand new F30/F32 based M3/M4. The options are: a.)Spend most of that budget making the S65 more economical and powerful. Leaving not much for chassis tweaks, and poverty spec on the hardware due to the expensive engine. (Our M3 buyers won't appreciate a big price increase, and the competition means a set price) b.)Develop a more powerful version of the brilliant N55 (which will meet our performance criteria), and spend the large amount remaining developing the chassis with carbon panels, etc, and due to the lower cost engine, equipping it with higher cost hardware likes brakes, ally panels, lightweight wheels, etc. If you vote option (a.) in the above scenario you are simply a V8 fan above an M3 fan, simple!!!! |
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10-01-2012, 04:26 PM | #405 |
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10-01-2012, 04:56 PM | #406 | ||||
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One more example is Subaru, they wanted a normally aspirated engine that produced similar power to the EJ20 (2 liter horizontally opposed 4 cylinder turbo), what did they come up with??? The 3.0 liter Spec B engine (added 2 cylinders to the EJ20 and of course 50% more cubes). And what the got was a thirstier, lower power, lower torque, lower revving engine than the EJ20 Turbo. Inferior in EVERY way, but yes it has a lovely linear power delivery...WoooHooooo!!!! Quote:
Surprisingly to you there were many enthusiasts that thought going V was selling out. V's are more expensive to make especially in Euro/Jap Twin cam form, 2 heads, more expensive boring machine lay outs, more parts to assemble, the list goes on. And V engines offer nothing in terms of performance, just compact (as in wide and short not overall volume)). If you know better please enlighten me as to why Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes, etc all dropped I6 engines within years of each other for more expensive V configurations? I so want you to answer this as you claim BMW are cheaping out going I6. |
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10-01-2012, 05:00 PM | #407 | |
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But to answer your question, considering Mercedes are getting Euro 33.6mpg combined out of a 5.5, it's pretty obvious that the mpg and emissions will be significantly better on this new engine than on the 6 year old S65. I mean BMWs 535d used to offer 35mpg combined upon it's 2006 release, well for 2012 the engine offers more power and 51mpg combined. Technology moves far faster than you realize. |
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10-01-2012, 05:23 PM | #408 | |
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10-01-2012, 05:37 PM | #409 | |||
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All I am saying is that an I6 is inherently less expensive than a similar V8. I have also shown how simple economy of scale makes high volume parts and systems less expensive than low volume ones. In this case, for BMW M, the I6 is the least expensive option, mostly due to economy of scale. I would also bet that at the same volume an I6 would be less expensive than a V6. There are other advantages of a V6 in terms of compactness that for some purposes may make that a necessity. The I6 physically may not fit.
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10-01-2012, 05:51 PM | #410 | |
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The new M3/4 WILL indeed have significantly better fuel efficiency than the current model. It also WILL have significantly less CO2 output (basically the same thing as mpg). It will also have much better than 14-16 mpg city. The closest example for reference is the I6 turbo in the 1M. That gets 19/26. The new M will be a bit heavier but will also likely have an 8 speed transmission where 8th gear will very likely be an overdrive type of gear. I actually expect better fuel efficiency than the 1M simply due to all of the engine redesigns and improved component efficiency, new/improved VANOS, improved direct injection, etc. My prediction is that both first digits of the city/highway mpg will actually be 2's. If babied on cruise control I'd be willing to bet the car will be capable of 30 mpg.
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10-01-2012, 08:19 PM | #411 | |
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The N55 came out 3 or 4 years after the N54 without any significant improvment on mpg or co2 emissions. You think 3 years later and with an extra 150hp,the " s55" will have better mpg than the N55? |
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10-01-2012, 08:29 PM | #412 | |
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10-02-2012, 02:09 AM | #413 | |
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This is as dumb as a guy driving a Suburban lecturing the guy who drives an Excusion on the environment because He gets 12mpg rather than 11mpg. |
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10-02-2012, 04:42 AM | #414 | |||
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You are the exact example of what gets fed back to engineers, you don't like that delay in throttle reponse in ANY rev range. (By the way that delay, isn't an engine response delay, just boosted engine response delay). So now engineers have to add that second and third turbo, and limit overall rpm range all to appease some guy who doesn't get Turbo engines. Very very sad indeed. Nope not at all, all the examples I have given are available in the same body styles. In fact the Toyota Supra you wouldn't know whether it had the Turbo or NA engine from the outside, by all accounts exactly the same car. For your info the stats for the two are: Normally Aspirated (2JZ-GE) 220hp 210lb.ft Turbo charged (2JZ-GTE) 320hp 315lb.ft No doubt you would plump for the NA version as it has NO LAG? Quote:
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So what is exactly your point? That more expensive engines are somehow better? |
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10-02-2012, 09:40 AM | #415 | |
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To answer your question, yes the S55 engine will be able to achieve close to 30mpg highway and be far cleaner than the S65. Power output isn't a key factor as I've tried to show you. I used a BMW example as well as Mercedes example, but you chose to ignore that as it's abundantly clear that you're either clueless or trolling. Enjoy your motorbike. |
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10-02-2012, 10:05 AM | #416 | |
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http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=751357 |
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10-02-2012, 02:24 PM | #417 | ||
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1. OEMs including marketing guys and engineers actually understand, in detail, their own products including their FI systems. They make products that address the concerns of both internal and consumers, enthusiasts and regular folks. Lag is a real issue and their solutions actually address a real problem. 2. No one, consumers, OEM Marketing folks and their brilliant engineers actually understand FI systems, benefits and drawbacks. You and a select group of enthusiasts are the only ones who really understand the problem. The OEM waste 10s of millions of dollars solving non existent problems. I know which I believe... Whether it is lag or rpms below a boost threshold the result is the same - a delay in obtaining full power from the time it is requested by throttle application. I never insisted that an evolved S65 is a better "engineering solution" for the next generation M3/4. What is the case is that such an engine is a better fit with the history, legacy and long term principles of BMW M. The thing is though, those principles are a changin' with more emphasis on cost and profit at the expense of abandoning principles. For you to continue to think that folks who enjoy NA engines just "don't get" turbo's is both arrogant and narrow minded. There are advantages and disadvantages of each. Quote:
On a last related note it is obvious why such engine configurations are offered. Lower component prices through the economy of scale! Again my point is simply to elucidate BMW Ms decision making process. Many here romanticize BMW M and think the BMW M of today is the same BMW M of 5-10 years ago. They are being driven almost entirely by cost and the reason the new car will get an inline 6 turbo is almost entirely to use the least expensive engine possible.
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10-02-2012, 03:16 PM | #418 | |
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But those things don't make financial sense. Does a 730 hp V12 make financial sense in a $330k F12? Yep, some. Does an LS7 make financial sense in a Z06? Enough. Does leaving mechanical LSD's out of all non M cars make financial sense? Probably. Does saddling every car with subsidized RFT's and saving the cost of a spare, a lug wrench and a jack make financial sense? Yep. I'm an accountant and I can't think of a single car that isn't burdened by the reality of cost savings. Even the ne plus ultra of stupid cars, the Veyron, would be massively cooler if it didn't weigh as much a Suburban, but making it lighter would have made it even more expensive. Give the M3 a straight six, the engine it's had more often than any other configuration. |
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