Loaded M4 vs. base Porsche 911 (991 3.4L Carrera)

[IE92]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Dude, you are manipulating the $$ to make your point, and even though every single person in this post has refuted you, you still insist on making the arguments. So I'll do the math.

To get an M4 to $85k, one would have to start at $64,200 and then add $20k in options. Thusly:

Base M4 - $64,200
CCB's - $7,500
Exec Package - $3,900
Metallic - $550
Driver Assist Plus - $1,900
Harmon Kardon - $875
MDCT - $2,900
Adaptive suspension - $1,000
19" wheels - $1,200

Destination - $925

Total - $84,950

So, to get a Carerra optioned in a similar manner:

Base Carrera: $84,300

Bose Audio Package: $2,120
Premium Plus w/ Power Sport Seats: $2,330
Metallic: $710
Standard interior with leather seats: $1,550
Park Assist Front & Rear: $990
Dynamic Lights: $Inc in package
PASM: $2,090
PCCB's: $8,520
PDK: $4,080
19 Wheels: INC
Power Sport Seats with Memory Package: $2,320
Carbon console trim: $630
Carbon Interior Package: $1,770
Voice Control: $595
PTV Plus: $1,490

Total: $114,495

So almost exactly $30k more, comparably equipped. YOu could argue that the Porsche could be optioned out more reasonably. And I agree. But then it wouldn't be apples to apples now would it.

Let's go a bit more luxury, without the CCB's, and without Driver assist, but adding in LED lights and extended leather:

Base M4 - $64,200
Exec Package - $3,900
Metallic - $550
Lighting Package - $1,900
Harmon Kardon - $875
MDCT - $2,900
Adaptive suspension - $1,000
19" wheels - $1,200
Full Leather - $1,100 with exec Pack

Destination - $925

Total - $78,550

Now a similar Porsche. I'll even take off the ridiculous carbon trim:

Base Carrera: $84,300

Bose Audio Package: $2,120
Premium Plus w/ Power Sport Seats: $2,330
Metallic: $710
Leather Interior: $3,690
Park Assist Front & Rear: $990
LED Headlights: $3,110
PASM: $2,090
PDK: $4,080
19 Wheels: INC
Power Sport Seats with Memory Package: $2,320
Interior Package in Leather (i.c.w. Leather Interior)
Voice Control: $595
PTV Plus: $1,490

Total: $109,610

So now the difference is over $31k.

Face it, no matter how you slice it, if you want to get the cars equipped reasonably the same, you're looking at $20k difference. To say nothing of the fact that you're down 50 HP and over 100 ft. lbs of torque. Argue all you want, you won't be right.

You're also discussing a discounted price vs. full MSRP. Which is bunk. The M4 WILL have discounts available within 6-12 months, just as the 991 does now. I'm sure when the 991 was out there was no haggling then either. So say in a year, you're taking 10% off the 991, and 7% off for Euro delivery or a combination of year end / CCA / USAA, etc. That leaves you with:

$79,003 vs. $103,495

and

$73,051 vs. $98,649

So your difference is $24k and $25k respectively.

To get a car that has less power and a lot less torque. Oh, and next to no back seat. That's a big difference to many buyers. The M4 is generally used way more day to day than the 911

Sorry, just not comparable.

Exactly! OP loves comparing apples and oranges. "An M4 with every option known to man is $85k and a 991 with PDK only is $89k. See they're the same!"

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by PawnStar

Initial orders are going to be mostly loaded, $80k+ M4s, which I think is interesting in light of the close proximity of the 991 at that price point.


d.

you have absolutely NO evidence of this whatsoever. plus, anyone (like me for example) can order an m3 or m4 spec'd exactly how they want it from their dealer. my m3 will cost just over 65k and will have plenty of features standard. equal to about 8k worth of add ons to a 991.

so no, no one is FORCED into buying an 80k+ m4. the only way its that expensive is if you want it to be. and if you want all that tech on the m4, why wouldn't you want it on the 991

read this thread. no one agrees with you, and every single person realizes you are skewing the numbers to make your "comparison" make some remote semblance of sense. but it doesn't.

the fact is the cars are easily 25k or more apart when spec'd similarly. both cars are available to order with the exact specs that a buyer wants.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by PawnStar

It seems there's a disconnect between OP and some of the responses, so a clarification is in order.

Yes, as it reads currently there is a huge gulf between the sentiments expressed in your original post and the notion of comparing the two cars equipped to be as similar in price as possible. Your first two paragraphs are dedicated to suggesting that things are somehow different this time around than last time - which has subsequently been established not to be the case.

Also, initial orders, not orders placed in 12 months, would necessitate comparisons between a non-discounted M4 and a discounted 991...

I don't agree with you at all. If you take a look at the ordering forum you'll find forum sponsors who can help you get a discounted M4 today.

So then, a rather simpler question is:

$85k new M4 or ~$88k new 911?

It's still a faulty premise based on your M4 number.

How about: nearly-loaded M4 vs. near-stripper 911?

[PawnStar]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

If you take a look at the ordering forum you'll find forum sponsors who can help you get a discounted M4 today.

Interesting. Considering that most, if not all, dealers are sold out of their initial allocation, I would love to get a discount on an M4 today. Who do I call??

How about: nearly-loaded M4 vs. near-stripper 911?

Ok, how about it?? (What performance options is the base 911 missing that are present on loaded M4, except for CCB)?

And thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to edit the title to reflect just that.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by PawnStar

There used to be a relatively significant price difference between a previous generation M3 coupe and previous gen 911 (997). By way of example, a somewhat loaded ZCP E92 with MDCT ran in high 60s MSRP, while base 997 ran in mid 80s. The gap was further increased due to the relatively high discounts that could be had for the M3 vs much smaller discounts on a 997.

The picture seems to be different with current gen offerings: based on available numbers for the M4, it will likely touch mid 80s without trying too hard. With most initial purchases expected to be at or near MSRP (above in some cases), the M4 is now firmly in the 991 911 pricing territory. (Porsche pricing assumes moderate performance options, in line with what M4 has to offer)

So, a question for those who are actually in the market for a ~85k+ 2+2 coupe, when the hype and dust both settle, which car ends up in the garage?

Although you've deliberately loaded the dice here, it seems to me to be a pretty fair question.

However.

In my opinion, the new M4 will tend to beat the crap out of a 911 in pretty much any sort of objective performance and usability comparison. Therefore, excluding hopeless fanboys, folks aren't going to buy the base 911 against the bimmer unless the looks so overpower them (see fanboys) that they simply must buy the Porsche.

A more fair objective matchup is the M4 against the 991 911S, and here your original point is pretty much absolute.

Subjectively speaking, the cars inhabit two different worlds, but I'm willing to bet the M4 will take away a few sales from the 911S, hard as that may be to believe.

Bruce

[karbonphiber]

Originally Posted by IE92

They're not exactly comparable in price. The M4 starts at $64,200 and the 991 starts at $84,300. You're trying to compare a heavily optioned M4 to a base 991. If someone is going to add DCT, ceramic brakes, full leather, executive package, etc. to the M4, then surely they would want the same features in the Porsche. A similarly optioned 991 would cost well over $105k.

I concur and it's funny how most people don't understand the concept of comparing apples to apples.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by PawnStar

Interesting. Considering that most, if not all, dealers are sold out of their initial allocation, I would love to get a discount on an M4 today. Who do I call??

Ok, fair enough. A more honest answer is that you can talk to a dealership specializing in ED and get a discount today, but you are not going to get the car on day one of availability. Discounts from MSRP may be available today for non-ED as well, but again you will have to get in line and wait for an allocation.

(What performance options is the base 911 missing that are present on loaded M4, except for CCB)?

I'd have to think about it, but I don't think its worth the time.

I say this because the same answer to that would also apply to an M4 with a Rolex in the glove-box and an M4 + a suitcase full of diamonds. In other words, you can throw in any number of non-performance add-ons to any car to jack up its cost to match that of another. What do you accomplish by doing so?

[karbonphiber]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Dude, you are manipulating the $$ to make your point, and even though every single person in this post has refuted you, you still insist on making the arguments. So I'll do the math.

To get an M4 to $85k, one would have to start at $64,200 and then add $20k in options. Thusly:

Base M4 - $64,200
CCB's - $7,500
Exec Package - $3,900
Metallic - $550
Driver Assist Plus - $1,900
Harmon Kardon - $875
MDCT - $2,900
Adaptive suspension - $1,000
19" wheels - $1,200

Destination - $925

Total - $84,950

So, to get a Carerra optioned in a similar manner:

Base Carrera: $84,300

Bose Audio Package: $2,120
Premium Plus w/ Power Sport Seats: $2,330
Metallic: $710
Standard interior with leather seats: $1,550
Park Assist Front & Rear: $990
Dynamic Lights: $Inc in package
PASM: $2,090
PCCB's: $8,520
PDK: $4,080
19 Wheels: INC
Power Sport Seats with Memory Package: $2,320
Carbon console trim: $630
Carbon Interior Package: $1,770
Voice Control: $595
PTV Plus: $1,490

Total: $114,495

So almost exactly $30k more, comparably equipped. YOu could argue that the Porsche could be optioned out more reasonably. And I agree. But then it wouldn't be apples to apples now would it.

Let's go a bit more luxury, without the CCB's, and without Driver assist, but adding in LED lights and extended leather:

Base M4 - $64,200
Exec Package - $3,900
Metallic - $550
Lighting Package - $1,900
Harmon Kardon - $875
MDCT - $2,900
Adaptive suspension - $1,000
19" wheels - $1,200
Full Leather - $1,100 with exec Pack

Destination - $925

Total - $78,550

Now a similar Porsche. I'll even take off the ridiculous carbon trim:

Base Carrera: $84,300

Bose Audio Package: $2,120
Premium Plus w/ Power Sport Seats: $2,330
Metallic: $710
Leather Interior: $3,690
Park Assist Front & Rear: $990
LED Headlights: $3,110
PASM: $2,090
PDK: $4,080
19 Wheels: INC
Power Sport Seats with Memory Package: $2,320
Interior Package in Leather (i.c.w. Leather Interior)
Voice Control: $595
PTV Plus: $1,490

Total: $109,610

So now the difference is over $31k.

Face it, no matter how you slice it, if you want to get the cars equipped reasonably the same, you're looking at $20k difference. To say nothing of the fact that you're down 50 HP and over 100 ft. lbs of torque. Argue all you want, you won't be right.

You're also discussing a discounted price vs. full MSRP. Which is bunk. The M4 WILL have discounts available within 6-12 months, just as the 991 does now. I'm sure when the 991 was out there was no haggling then either. So say in a year, you're taking 10% off the 991, and 7% off for Euro delivery or a combination of year end / CCA / USAA, etc. That leaves you with:

$79,003 vs. $103,495

and

$73,051 vs. $98,649

So your difference is $24k and $25k respectively.

To get a car that has less power and a lot less torque. Oh, and next to no back seat. That's a big difference to many buyers. The M4 is generally used way more day to day than the 911

Sorry, just not comparable.

[Real Deal]

Originally Posted by karbonphiber

I concur and it's funny how most people don't understand the concept of comparing apples to apples.

Well all apples are also not created equal, let's take honey crisp vs a red apple? Honey crisp takes the nod on that one if you ask me :-) I don't get all of these threads... 911 vs m4? Let's see, no back seats, plain jane 911 without any options same cost of an almost loaded m3/4? Hmmm

[PawnStar]

In my opinion, the new M4 will tend to beat the crap out of a 911 in pretty much any sort of objective performance and usability comparison.

That remains to be seen, so speculation as of right now.

A more fair objective matchup is the M4 against the 991 911S, and here your original point is pretty much absolute.

I'm sure you will agree, that until the reviews are in, we're speculating...

Subjectively speaking, the cars inhabit two different worlds, but I'm willing to bet the M4 will take away a few sales from the 911S, hard as that may be to believe.

Bruce

As it should, an exciting new M4 will rightfully get tons of attention in the marketplace. The reviews and owners feedback, however, will either keep that attention on it or shift it elsewhere...

[PawnStar]

Originally Posted by Real Deal

Well all apples are also not created equal, let's take honey crisp vs a red apple? Honey crisp takes the nod on that one if you ask me :-) I don't get all of these threads... 911 vs m4? Let's see, no back seats, plain jane 911 without any options same cost of an almost loaded m3/4? Hmmm

I wonder if plain jane 911 is closer to a honey crisp then a red apple...Could be a different apple altogether, like red delicious apple??

[caneaddict]

Personally I think it's fair to compare any 2 cars (550 vs. M4 vs 991 vs maserati etc). Many people are very open when purchasing a car and others are quite rigid. I've seen people walk into a dealership to get a SUV and walk out with a convertible and vice versa.

Regarding this comparison, I have never driven a base 991 so I have little to go on. I did drive a 991S with sport chrono. What made the car for me was the feeling after going into sport plus and the sound of the sport exhaust. Really prior to engaging the sport plus, my thought was that the 991 was a soft, small uncomfortable car and I would rather any nice sport sedan. So for me the S, sport chrono, PDK, and sport exhaust are must haves if i were to buy a 991.

There is no question in my mind that i would MUCH rather have a lightly equipped M4 to a base 991. The 991 is obviously a small car so to make up for the drop in overall comfort, i expect something that will make me giggle and I don't think the base 991 would do that (30 min in the S with sport chrono and sport exhaust made me laugh uncontrollably and smile for days). I think the The M4 would be both more usable and more enjoyable/fun relative to the base 991.

As I indicated before though, because I care only about the actual feel of the driving the car (new vs. used doesn't affect me much), I would personally compare the M4 to a used well equipped 991s fully loaded.

Here is one that was asking $90k even sold in Oct.

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/a...carrera-s.html

Here's one that cost $150k with all the after market options and sold last month low $90's.

http://sharkwerks.com/porsche/991-ca...hart-aero.html

The current price for a $115k 991 2012 is below $90k.

Another interesting comparison is the M6:

Here's a fully loaded 2013 that was on sale for 5 months with asking price $87k, just sold but i don't know the price:

http://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=862547

The M6 is obviously not as agile as the M4 or 991 but damn - that particular one is hot, and the interior is just so much nicer than the M4.

While these are all $10 - $15k over a decent spec M4, the M4 won't arrive till next summer for most people so by then the other cars will depreciate significantly more and I would imagine the price difference will be no more than $5k - $10k.

Not saying people should buy used, but I understand all the comparisons on the board being made.

[Real Deal]

Originally Posted by PawnStar

I wonder if plain jane 911 is closer to a honey crisp then a red apple...Could be a different apple altogether, like red delicious apple??

Preference per individual I guess... For me a loaded M3 > plane jane 911 all day.

[jbockrd]

Originally Posted by PawnStar

It seems there's a disconnect between OP and some of the responses, so a clarification is in order. I used words like 'initial' orders and 'similar performance options' to draw comparisons. I fail to see how optioning up 991 with 18 way seats, more leather, carbon inlays, Bose audio package and glowin the dark emblems are related to performance.

Also, initial orders, not orders placed in 12 months, would necessitate comparisons between a non-discounted M4 and a discounted 991, nothing wrong with either one, just the way it is for now.

So then, a rather simpler question is:

$85k new M4 or ~$88k new 911?

If you find an 88k Porsche 911, no one would want to buy a cayman or boxter. Also, I agree you are not looking at comparable cars. You need to bare bone a no option M4 then compare it to an $88k 911 Its still gonna be around a 20K difference

Originally Posted by PawnStar

I had a regular Boxster last year with a manual, had a lot of fun with it. Boxster S is that much more ...suave... I'm sure. But M4 and 991 are both 2+2...

A porsche 911 is a 2+2, an M4 is a legit 4 seater that I use all the time. I am not a tall guy and I wont volunteer to sit in the back of a 911

[w3rkn]

Two questions:
Why buy a Porsche, when you can get a Z06..? (unless Panamera/Mecan)
Why buy an M4, when you can get an M2, (or a Cobra GT500)..?


BMW's are no longer so special fellas, shop around.

[E92LNGCGY]

Originally Posted by Suave

I think a better comparison would be the Boxster S. My recently sold ride to make space for the M4 was a nearly fully loaded Convertible which I got for 80k. The performance easily bested that of an E93 in a beautiful package. A comparably equipped 2014 Boxster S can be had for same price as M4 although I will admit that new M4 has improved and distanced itself from the current Boxster and why I easily made the choice to switch after only a short time with her. I don't drive in winter months so just sold it for nearly what I paid for her. Here are a a couple of Pics to help you appreciate my position in my garage and when I picked her up from Dealer.

Lovely ride. You are right. M4 should be compared to Boxster S or Cayman S. I made a different thread about M4 vs Cayman S/GTS.

Choices are great.

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by PawnStar

Interesting. Considering that most, if not all, dealers are sold out of their initial allocation, I would love to get a discount on an M4 today. Who do I call??

I don't believe this is true. And I don't believe you could know it, if it was. You've contacted every dealer in the US?

The first dealer I contacted here in the Bay Area said they'd gladly take a deposit for a build starting in May/June.

I don't expect to have any trouble ordering one. You'll definitely be paying MSRP though.

Pat

[LSM]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

yet again, the m4 ONLY reaches 85k if you option like an idiot and tick every box. even then, it will be far more well equipped than a base 911 which is stripped in base form.

that said ive driven a 991 c4s and if it cost the same as an m4 there is no way I would take the m4. the c4s is THAT damn good

you can get a very well equipped m4 for 70k and the Porsche is far more expensive and has far less tech and space.

different cars at different price points

[duk]

anything below an S model is lol

[ixse]

who the fak goes into porsche dealer and asks for "base 911 w no options please". no porsche dealer even carries a 991 w no options.
also base 991(non s) is too slow for being a 911. therr was a test where it pretty much matched a speed of boxster s. and there is no way in hell f8x will be any slower than it.

[solstice]

Maybe I had to many BMWs and likely my lifelong infatuation with the 911 play a major role but when I see, hear, sit in and mainly drive the 991 ( any 991 ) I get this deafening loud voice in my head "I WANT IT!!!". The F8X is a more subdued voice this far "It seems rather nice" kind of thing. I.e if I could fit the kids safely and comfortably in the 991 I'd stretch the extra $30k. Not saying that it's a better car but it ticks all my boxes and that's what matters in the end.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by PawnStar

It seems there's a disconnect between OP and some of the responses, so a clarification is in order. I used words like 'initial' orders and 'similar performance options' to draw comparisons. I fail to see how optioning up 991 with 18 way seats, more leather, carbon inlays, Bose audio package and glowin the dark emblems are related to performance.

Also, initial orders, not orders placed in 12 months, would necessitate comparisons between a non-discounted M4 and a discounted 991, nothing wrong with either one, just the way it is for now.

So then, a rather simpler question is:

$85k new M4 or ~$88k new 911?

Because in order to get an M4 to $85k you have to, as you said, option it up with a ton of options.

So what you are trying to do is compare a loaded up M4, to the negotiated price on a stripper 991.

Where's the disconnect here? Face it, your argument is dumb.