BMW reportedly working on M3 Touring?

[BMW M3 CRT]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Well I have not heard or seen anything regarding an F31 based 3er Touring as of yet.

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

I have not seen anything or heard anything in relation to an M3 Touring.

I THINK it is simply an great misunderstanding. They probably heard an rumor / someting about an performance 3er series Touring which will be presenteted on this year IAA and think this could only mean M3 Touring.

But I THINK it could more likely be an F31 M340i xDrive Touring which debuts as Concept Car on the IAA in September 2015.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by solstice

I mostly agree with you and if available I would likely rather get the cheapest diesel 5 series X-Drive wagon on euro delivery than fork out for an M5 wagon as an SUV replacement. But now I've grown used to having an SUV when going skiing and hiking, the ground clearance and suspension travel makes a difference when driving on rotten forest roads and it significantly lessens the dirt you drag into the car, it also seem that the extra volume help to much more efficiently keep the windows from fogging up when four skiers dump their wet clothes and equipment in the car.

I interpreted that to mean that on the internet, you'll profess love for a diesel 5er wagon or RWD M3 wagon, but in the "real world" you would spend your $ to get an X3 28d or X5 35d or X5M for the awd and ground clearance and space

[brad850csi]

Scott, if you can confirm there you haven't heard anything about an M3 Touring in this generation, what about an M5 next time around? There was an M5 Touring in E34 and E60, but it skipped E39 and F11 so maybe next generation?

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by brad850csi

Scott, if you can confirm there you haven't heard anything about an M3 Touring in this generation, what about an M5 next time around? There was an M5 Touring in E34 and E60, but it skipped E39 and F11 so maybe next generation?

I would love an F11 M5 Touring as well as a G81 M5 Touring as I currently still own the E61 M5 Touring which is still like new. It depends on the business plan.
Whilst the super fats Touring's for the M5 and M3 would be more inclined for Europe the global perspective would be for the SUV variants. And it would be these markets that have the largest voice.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I interpreted that to mean that on the internet, you'll profess love for a diesel 5er wagon or RWD M3 wagon, but in the "real world" you would spend your $ to get an X3 28d or X5 35d or X5M for the awd and ground clearance and space

Pretty much, I do love wagons but since I'm lucky enough to live in an area where I often do make good use of the ground clearance of an SUV a wagon is not really in the cards.

[Jblack4083]

I hope this also spawns an M4GC but it sounds highly unlikely.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by myzmak

Oh, customers are very often wrong as hell. It won't help you in business if you are selling to them, no, but, sure, the people can be dead wrong.

Individuals can, and frequently are, wrong.
Marketplace, as a whole, is always right.

Originally Posted by Blindside_137

Personally I don't understand the wagon obsession.
Maybe its people like me why BMW doesn't bring this stateside.

Same here.
What's the point of begging for a heavier, slower version of F80/82, with compromised rear visibility and driving dynamics ?

The delta storage room in the back is not enough to turn a sedan into a minivan, not that I would ever want a splicing of the two.

Maybe if I had a giant dog that could not fit into the back seat, but even then, it wont fit comfortably into the wagon's back either.

a

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Individuals can, and frequently are, wrong.
Marketplace, as a whole, is always right.

An devotion to economics orthodoxy that proves that economists should never be in charge of anything

As with any absolute declarations of philosophical bent, if you truly and completely believe that, you've certainly had to close the door on being open minded enough to see how often that statement is wrong (as with most universals), in which case you are immune to convincing. If you were deliberately being bold yet still tongue in cheek for the sake rhetorical flair, then I'll assume you know how ridiculous an absolute like that proves to be, in which case you don't need convincing.

Same here.
What's the point of begging for a heavier, slower version of F80/82, with compromised rear visibility and driving dynamics ?

The delta storage room in the back is not enough to turn a sedan into a minivan, not that I would ever want a splicing of the two.

Maybe if I had a giant dog that could not fit into the back seat, but even then, it wont fit comfortably into the wagon's back either.

a

This gets back to the point I was making about lingering images/associations. You equate 'wagon' with 'minivan' (a soul-less people hauler). I don't think of it like that at all. To me, the more natural comparison is with the SUV. That is a vehicle with comparable space to the wagon that is used for largely the same tasks. But, in my view, the SUV is poor at pretty much all of them.

Even now, with the SUV market growing, what manufacturers are desperately trying to do is make the SUV more 'car like' - that is, make SUVs that drive like cars. Their desperate need to do so shows how much they have failed (given, well, physics).

By comparison, the wagon already drives like a car - because it is one and is built like one.

....and I've never seen a review of a killer wagon (E63, RS6, M5, etc) where someone complained of the compromised driving dynamics. I would think it is less of an issue than it is with the convertible. (on the E63, for instance, the estate is about 100kg more than the sedan....) mostly people praise the ability to get a drive like THAT out of a car that is actually practical for a family.

Minivans are in another world from all of this. While wagons are cool and fun to drive, and people pretend SUVs are cool and fun to drive, minivans have zero cachet anywhere. They are 100% practical.

Its funny, though, to read people who don't get the wagon thing. I've never got the SUV thing. Ever. Especially the 'sport' versions (whether it is AMGs or Ms or whatever). I've just always thought of them as being good marketing, poor product....

[MasterC17]

Would buy.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by afadeev

What's the point of begging for a heavier, slower version of F80/82, with compromised rear visibility and driving dynamics ?

Nearly every unibody SUV on the market today is essentially a heavier, slower version of some passenger car, with compromised rear visibility and driving dynamics. Except that they take heaviness, slowness and compromises in visibility and driving dynamics to the next level by deliberately (and needlessly) mutilating the vehicle into something that looks and behaves more truck-like. This is only done to appeal to people who prefer the image of a truck to a hatchback passenger car, but in fact don't actually have any need for a truck at all.

And those things fly off the lots.

So by forgoing the marketing exercise and not pretending that a vehicle needs to feel like a truck in order to provide similar utility, we retain the vast majority of those advantages that the passenger car has over the truck while gaining the tangible benefits that we wanted from the truck to begin with.

That's the point.

[brad850csi]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

I would love an F11 M5 Touring as well as a G81 M5 Touring as I currently still own the E61 M5 Touring which is still like new. It depends on the business plan.
Whilst the super fats Touring's for the M5 and M3 would be more inclined for Europe the global perspective would be for the SUV variants. And it would be these markets that have the largest voice.

Scott, thank you for the response. The AMG E63 Estate sales in the states will help BMW make that decision for the USA and the Chinese body shape preference is similar to the USA. Hopefully there is enough of a case for it.

891 E34 Tourings (7.27%) and 1025 E61 Tourings (4.98%) might not be all that much, but there seems to be a world wide demand for new and unique shapes, BMW of course has filled almost every niche.

Note though that the E34 was only LHD and 3.8, in the same time frame and same market, Europe 3.8 LHD, they only sold 2676 Sedans, so it was actually 33.3%, one in three! If we remove the American market E60s from the count it was 9.2%, and of course the E61 came 18 months after the E60, when you would assume a lot of the E60 M5s were sold - most cars sell very well when they are first introduced then demand wanes..

Do you know what sort of percentage there is of 535i, 550i, 535d and M550xd Tourings versus their Sedan counterparts in the few countries where the F11 is sold?

Also 335i Touring vs 335i Sedan would be an interesting number!

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by brad850csi

Scott, thank you for the response. The AMG E63 Estate sales in the states will help BMW make that decision for the USA and the Chinese body shape preference is similar to the USA. Hopefully there is enough of a case for it.

891 E34 Tourings (7.27%) and 1025 E61 Tourings (4.98%) might not be all that much, but there seems to be a world wide demand for new and unique shapes, BMW of course has filled almost every niche.

Note though that the E34 was only LHD and 3.8, in the same time frame and same market, Europe 3.8 LHD, they only sold 2676 Sedans, so it was actually 33.3%, one in three! If we remove the American market E60s from the count it was 9.2%, and of course the E61 came 18 months after the E60, when you would assume a lot of the E60 M5s were sold - most cars sell very well when they are first introduced then demand wanes..

Do you know what sort of percentage there is of 535i, 550i, 535d and M550xd Tourings versus their Sedan counterparts in the few countries where the F11 is sold?

Also 335i Touring vs 335i Sedan would be an interesting number!

Even though the Mercedes E-Klasse is the definitive premium wagon model in the US. It is suffering the same lack of interest as the BMW 3er Touring. And again the answer is Americans do not want wagons they want SUVs which is why they have shifted focus to the new GLE models.
Its also why the upcoming GLC is a higher priority than a C-Klasse T-Modell. Now that Mercedes have expanded their SUVS line-up I have heard the next generation like BMW is another US casualty because of increasing demand for SUV models which Mercedes have expanded just as BMW have done to reflect customer demand.

You may mock the 5er Gran Turismo but is it really a failure if its sales years indicates they sold more units than the previous 5er Touring each year it was on sale? The 3er Gran Turismo outsells the 3er Touring in North America as does the BMW X1. Expect more focus on the F48 when the new X1 is launched and all the more reason for the announcement of the BMW X2.

[MFNATIK]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Even though the Mercedes E-Klasse is the definitive premium wagon model in the US. It is suffering the same lack of interest as the BMW 3er Touring. And again the answer is Americans do not want wagons they want SUVs which is why they have shifted focus to the new GLE models.
Its also why the upcoming GLC is a higher priority than a C-Klasse T-Modell. Now that Mercedes have expanded their SUVS line-up I have heard the next generation like BMW is another US casualty because of increasing demand for SUV models which Mercedes have expanded just as BMW have done to reflect customer demand.

You may mock the 5er Gran Turismo but is it really a failure if its sales years indicates they sold more units than the previous 5er Touring each year it was on sale? The 3er Gran Turismo outsells the 3er Touring in North America as does the BMW X1. Expect more focus on the F48 when the new X1 is launched and all the more reason for the announcement of the BMW X2.

Oh god. Whats wrong with us Americans...

[SamS]

Originally Posted by MFNATIK

Oh god. Whats wrong with us Americans...

A big percentage of US car buyers are women, and most of them that I talk to (such as my wife) who need the utility of a wagon, prefer the higher seating position of an SUV.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Expect more focus on the F48 when the new X1 is launched and all the more reason for the announcement of the BMW X2.

Scott, what do you think the chances are of an X1M ? I would LOVE to a GLA45 competitor!

[MFNATIK]

Originally Posted by SamS

A big percentage of US car buyers are women, and most of them that I talk to (such as my wife) who need the utility of a wagon, prefer the higher seating position of an SUV.

Yeah, my wife is the same way. I got her an i3 instead and she loves it. It too has a higher seating position.

[davem3fan]

Take my money, please.

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Nearly every unibody SUV on the market today is essentially a heavier, slower version of some passenger car, with compromised rear visibility and driving dynamics. Except that they take heaviness, slowness and compromises in visibility and driving dynamics to the next level by deliberately (and needlessly) mutilating the vehicle into something that looks and behaves more truck-like. This is only done to appeal to people who prefer the image of a truck to a hatchback passenger car, but in fact don't actually have any need for a truck at all.

And those things fly off the lots.

So by forgoing the marketing exercise and not pretending that a vehicle needs to feel like a truck in order to provide similar utility, we retain the vast majority of those advantages that the passenger car has over the truck while gaining the tangible benefits that we wanted from the truck to begin with.

That's the point.

I guess that's the point, but to me it falls short in the majority of reasons why people get trucks and large SUV's.
1. Towing capability
2. Increased passenger capacity
3. Overall superior storage volume
4. Higher seating position
5. Ground clearance
6. 4WD

what exactly are those benefits of the truck that are translated to the wagon? Because to me only the trunk volume goes up, maybe double?

If it is me, no way do I want a wagon to double as my sports car and the family vacationing, boat hauling, christmas tree carrying SUV.

I feel like the F80 is plenty capable as is, with all of its trunk storage and rear seat, how much more is truly gained with a wagon variant? How would it compare to the overall storage capacity of a suburban? I feel like it is demolished in all those categories which are the ones that matter, and why many get the SUV over a wagon.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Blindside_137

I guess that's the point, but to me it falls short in the majority of reasons why people get trucks and large SUV's.

You seem to have read right passed the words "unibody SUVs" in my post. Very few such vehicles excel at the things you list except perhaps seating height. Your list represents the reasons why light trucks were originally conceived. These factors are not what are driving the vast majority of unibody light truck sales today.

AWD - sure many are, but many are not. And this feature is proliferating to passenger cars, the M3 included in the not too distant future. Still, it's true - if you are not one of the people who'd choose an M3 sedan over a 3 Series xDrive sedan today, then you would not be the target customer for an F81 either.

How would it compare to the overall storage capacity of a suburban?

It would be vastly inferior in utility, which is why I would never suggest a wagon to someone who genuinely needs a Suburban. But most people don't need that, and most people aren't buying those either. Look at the sales charts: the vast majority of SUVs sold today are compact in size. Escape, RAV4, CRV - these vehicles and others like them are what consumers are buying. They are not towing boats and driving off road. They are getting groceries and hauling their 2.2 kids and the dog. These are the same types of activities that could be accomplished in an M3 touring. We know this is possible since the same is already being done with a 3 Series touring today.

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

You seem to have read right passed the words "unibody SUVs" in my post. Very few such vehicles excel at the things you list except perhaps seating height. Your list represents the reasons why light trucks were originally conceived. These factors are not what are driving the vast majority of unibody light truck sales today.

AWD - sure many are, but many are not. And this feature is proliferating to passenger cars, the M3 included in the not too distant future. Still, it's true - if you are not one of the people who'd choose an M3 sedan over a 3 Series xDrive sedan today, then you would not be the target customer for an F81 either.

It would be vastly inferior in utility, which is why I would never suggest a wagon to someone who genuinely needs a Suburban. But most people don't need that, and most people aren't buying those either. Look at the sales charts: the vast majority of SUVs sold today are compact in size. Escape, RAV4, CRV - these vehicles and others like them are what consumers are buying. They are not towing boats and driving off road. They are getting groceries and hauling their 2.2 kids and the dog. These are the same types of activities that could be accomplished in an M3 touring. We know this is possible since the same is already being done with a 3 Series touring today.

Well I still don't see it. Why can't the F80 appease these buyers? Getting the groceries and taking the dog is the argument for the wagon? Really? Heck people do that in their M4, I don't think they need a wagon for that. My main point is how much more is truly gained with the wagon?

I just don't see the added advantage of simply a larger trunk. And maybe I missed unibody SUV because it's a phrase I'm unfamiliar with. So I looked it up, and still my opinion is that these "unibody suv's" provide increased seating, storage, ground clearance etc in a vastly increased amount than the wagon could do.

No where did I say people go off-roading in their cars.

But anyways I guess it's pointless to discuss further since it is unlikely to be built and I wouldn't be getting one anyways. I just feel like people here love the idea because no one will buy it, thus making it a bit more unique, not because they'll be able to get more groceries and an extra dog in it.

[SamS]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Look at the sales charts: the vast majority of SUVs sold today are compact in size. Escape, RAV4, CRV - these vehicles and others like them are what consumers are buying. They are not towing boats and driving off road. They are getting groceries and hauling their 2.2 kids and the dog. These are the same types of activities that could be accomplished in an M3 touring. We know this is possible since the same is already being done with a 3 Series touring today.

I think you are overstating the utility of an F31/F81, in comparison to the above vehicles. Due to the FWD architecture, a CR-V has a flat rear-passenger floor (i.e. more room/utility) higher tailgate load height (easier for "getting groceries"), all while taking potholes with ease.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Blindside_137

Well I still don't see it. Why can't the F80 appease these buyers? Getting the groceries and taking the dog is the argument for the wagon? Really?

You may not see it but the average automobile buyer at large does, otherwise SUVs would not be built in the two-box, hatchback form factor. Instead they'd be nothing more than sedans with some added ride height. Actually, we have vehicles like BMW's own X6 which is still a hatchback, but offers coupe-like styling and gives up the long roof and cargo space in the process, and they sell in very small numbers. They are often the butt of jokes due to the fact that they deliberately compromise the utility of the SUV for no reason other than aesthetics. Imagine that - a vehicle receiving ridicule for not being a traditional hatchback? If you took away the hatchback altogether, well, I bet we'd see sales go from low volume to nearly zero. Buyers would just get the AWD sedan instead - complete with the same cargo capacity and lack of towing ability of the car masquerading itself as an SUV, but with a lower ride height.

And maybe I missed unibody SUV because it's a phrase I'm unfamiliar with.

Give yourself some time, then. Now that you've been educated on what the SUV landscape looks like today, you'll need the chance for the whole thing to sink in. It can be difficult to accept, like coming out of the matrix for the first time, perhaps.

I just feel like people here love the idea because no one will buy it, thus making it a bit more unique, not because they'll be able to get more groceries and an extra dog in it.

I happen to own a wagon myself so I know first hand the added utility of a wagon vs. a sedan. I've also owned a compact SUV and know first hand what it offers vs. the wagon, which is to say - when the two are comparable size - very little in the way of tangible value.

So, while I won't speak for others here, I can say that the reason I love the idea of an F81 is because I understand the benefits it would offer. Essentially, this car makes sense for all the same reasons why product planners at Mercedes green-lit the S205 C63 and the product planners at Audi offer the B8 RS4.