BMW M4 GTS Water Injection System to See Implementation in More Cars

[MFNATIK]

BMW needs to offer a retrofit kit!

[MilehighM3]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Still they both reduce emissions and includes a tank for the fluid that the system injects (which kind of was what worried people here)

I take it you don't have any idea after reading the next post. Comparing water injection to DEF, cats to radios? Just babbling on and on about nothing. You think a vehicle that runs out of DEF continues to run just fine? Clearly you need to stop posting as if you have a clue.

[zenmaster]

http://www.bosch-presse.de/pressport...ent-57792.html

[BIMMER_Tech 631]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

All direct injection engines will have some degree of carbon build-up on the intake port. It's an unavoidable consequence of a "dry" intake valve. The emissions systems on your car must send any gasses containing hydrocarbons in to the intake. When these hydrocarbons hit the hot intake valve, they burn, leaving carbon.

The question is whether or not the rate of build-up causes an issue during the intended life-cycle. There's been a dramatic improvement in recent generations of direct injection systems, but there's still going to be some carbon formation on the intake valves, regardless of how good the system is.

Yea, so someone like you who understands how direct injection works is all I need to back me up. I know for a fact that GM, Ford, Mercedes and many other car manufacturers are using TK (same company that produced BMW's carbon blasting machine) to carbon blast their cars as well. No proof is needed as the ignorant member above requested. But you are 100% correct sir, dry ports are going to have buildup no matter what.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by MilehighM3

I take it you don't have any idea after reading the next post. Comparing water injection to DEF, cats to radios? Just babbling on and on about nothing. You think a vehicle that runs out of DEF continues to run just fine? Clearly you need to stop posting as if you have a clue.

I guess you haven't really read many of my technical posts on here? And you certainly didn't understand my post at all...

I didn't compare cats and radios, I explained to the other guy that unlike the radio (that he saw no point in using money on if it went bust after warranty expired), you want to keep your water injection system working. Because it doesn't only decrease emissions it also increases power.

Further I explained that while other emissions related equipment usually decreases hp, water injection does the opposite.

And, just as with water injection, a diesel engine runs just fine if the DEF tank is empty. It runs at reduced power, but only because the ECU is programmed to do that in order to keep emissions at a legal level when there isn't any def fluid left. Plenty of tuning options that disables the def system and increases power (or just disable the def and keep full stock power). In the early days you could even fill the def tank with water and keep full power, but nowadays there are sensors that check if it's the urea liquid that is in the tank.

But as I said in my previous post. A diesel engine will run just fine, but at a reduced power level (unless the def has been disabled by a tuner), when the urea tank is empty. Some countries might have legal requirements in a situation where the def tank is empty, based on emissions, that are stricter, but that has nothing to do with the engines ability to run without def. I dont know the legal requirements in every country, but from an engineering standpoint it's not a problem to run a diesel engine at full power without def (but nox emissions will increase).

BTW I work as an engineer in the automotive field.

[HighlandPete]

Interesting to see water being used to assist efficient combustion.

The idea of injection water is not new, amongst others, I experimented back in the mid 1970's, with generating steam and allowing it to flow into the inlet before the carburetor, I made up a prototype to see what happened with moist air, with the thinking that a gasoline engine feels more efficient with an optimum humidity.

Fabricated a small heating pot, clamped it to the exhaust manifold to generate the steam. Used a float chamber from an SU carburetor to control the flow and amount of water in the pot. Piped off the steam and let it simply flow into the Weber carb, (placed the steam outlet inside the air filter box). Had a physical control on the dash, a bit like a choke, which controlled the height of the float chamber, (from off to maximum steam generation).

I never seriously logged any data, but was convinced it made the engine smoother when it worked properly, with an improvement in mpg. But as it was only a quickly made up prototype and the boiler was made of steel, it soon rusted up and became unreliable. Remember I had a couple of occasions where it obviously had some big drops of water getting fed up the tube to the air filter, had a bit of a misfire for a few seconds due to water getting on one of the air correction jets. When it became unreliable, took it all off and forgot about it, but had proved a point in my own mind.

I'm sure Bosch have done a bit more R&D than guys like me, and their system will be more reliable.

[08njSTEP]

Interesting that the pic is not direct injection. Since most car manufacturer are going to DI this might be too late. I wonder how H2O would respond in a fuel jet at 2000psi(or whatever ridiculous pressure DI runs). Carb guys have been messing with this for a long time.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by 08njSTEP

Interesting that the pic is not direct injection. Since most car manufacturer are going to DI this might be too late. I wonder how H2O would respond in a fuel jet at 2000psi(or whatever ridiculous pressure DI runs). Carb guys have been messing with this for a long time.

This tech is already in the (direct injected) M4 GTS. The water is misted at air intake. I would not doubt that BMW will use it in other models due to increase in MPG, decrease in emissions, and increase in power (over 20HP more on the GTS). Downside seems to be increased maintenance as distilled water needs to be added every so many fillups.

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by 08njSTEP

Interesting that the pic is not direct injection. Since most car manufacturer are going to DI this might be too late. I wonder how H2O would respond in a fuel jet at 2000psi(or whatever ridiculous pressure DI runs). Carb guys have been messing with this for a long time.

Look again, it is a Direct Injection engine.
The water nozzle is in the intake, but the fuel nozzle is a direct injection type

[08njSTEP]

I stand corrected. On my little phone screen it looked like the only injector with Bosch logo was center one. My bad. I can't really Invision buying distilled water with every few fill ups. I don't get the diesel ad blue either. Seems like a real pita.

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by 08njSTEP

I stand corrected. On my little phone screen it looked like the only injector with Bosch logo was center one. My bad. I can't really Invision buying distilled water with every few fill ups. I don't get the diesel ad blue either. Seems like a real pita.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by 08njSTEP

I can't really Invision buying distilled water with every few fill ups. I don't get the diesel ad blue either. Seems like a real pita.

Everything still works fine with an empty water reservoir. You just have to refill it for the added benefits.

[ShocknAwe]

Water injection cool, add methanol for more cool. Not really new tech here, folks been doing this for years.

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by Boss330

But as I said in my previous post. A diesel engine will run just fine, but at a reduced power level (unless the def has been disabled by a tuner), when the urea tank is empty. Some countries might have legal requirements in a situation where the def tank is empty, based on emissions, that are stricter, but that has nothing to do with the engines ability to run without def. I dont know the legal requirements in every country, but from an engineering standpoint it's not a problem to run a diesel engine at full power without def (but nox emissions will increase).

.

Here our law doesn't require the urea system, so the whole system and its tank is omitted from all our diesel cars. Infact 99% percent of Diesel drivers here have never even heard of urea for Diesels as no make fits the system.

So the diesels can technically run without it, but local laws may state they may not

[zenmaster]

From the Bosch PR:

Extra boost for the turbocharged engine

But it is not only in the area of fuel economy that the Bosch innovation comes into play. It can make cars more powerful as well. “Water injection can deliver an extra kick in any turbocharged engine,” says Stefan Seiberth, president of the Gasoline Systems division at Bosch. Earlier ignition angles mean that the engine is operated even more efficiently. On this basis, engineers can coax additional power out of the engine, even in powerful sports cars.

The basis of this innovative engine technology is a simple fact: an engine must not be allowed to overheat. To stop this happening, additional fuel is injected into nearly every gasoline engine on today’s roads. This fuel evaporates, cooling parts of the engine block. With water injection, Bosch engineers have exploited this physical principle. Before the fuel ignites, a fine mist of water is injected into the intake duct. Water’s high heat of vaporization means that it provides effective cooling.

This is also the reason only a small additional volume of water is needed: for every one hundred kilometers driven, only a few hundred milliliters are necessary. As a result, the compact water tank that supplies the injection system with distilled water only has to be refilled every few thousand kilometers at the most.

And if the tank should run empty, there is nothing to worry about: the engine will still run smoothly – albeit without the higher torque and lower consumption provided by water injection.
Additional questions and answers

Is this technology already in production?

The BMW M4 GTS is the first production vehicle to feature an innovative and groundbreaking water injection system. In the vehicle’s turbocharged six-cylinder engine, it offers improved performance and consumption even at full load. Bosch supplies water injection parts for the BMW M4 GTS.

How high is fuel consumption in the driving cycle?

In the future consumption test (WLTC), water injection makes it possible to save up to 4 percent fuel. In real driving conditions, even more is possible: here, fuel consumption can be reduced by up to 13 percent when accelerating quickly or driving on the freeway.

Doesn’t water injection cause the engine to rust?

No. No water is left in the combustion chamber. The water evaporates before combustion happens in the engine. All the water is expelled into the environ-ment, together with the exhaust.

How is water refilled?

Water injection only requires a small amount of water to be kept on board. On average, it only has to be refilled every 3,000 kilometers. The separate water tank has to be filled with distilled water.

Can the water in the tank freeze?

When the engine is stopped, the water flows back into its tank, where it may freeze. Following engine restart, the water thaws again.

Is there such a thing as direct water injection?

Bosch uses a port injection system, since it has clear technical advantages and costs less. This makes water injection suitable for large-scale production, as well as for many vehicle segments.

[MilehighM3]

Originally Posted by Boss330

I guess you haven't really read many of my technical posts on here? And you certainly didn't understand my post at all...

I didn't compare cats and radios, I explained to the other guy that unlike the radio (that he saw no point in using money on if it went bust after warranty expired), you want to keep your water injection system working. Because it doesn't only decrease emissions it also increases power.

Further I explained that while other emissions related equipment usually decreases hp, water injection does the opposite.

And, just as with water injection, a diesel engine runs just fine if the DEF tank is empty. It runs at reduced power, but only because the ECU is programmed to do that in order to keep emissions at a legal level when there isn't any def fluid left. Plenty of tuning options that disables the def system and increases power (or just disable the def and keep full stock power). In the early days you could even fill the def tank with water and keep full power, but nowadays there are sensors that check if it's the urea liquid that is in the tank.

But as I said in my previous post. A diesel engine will run just fine, but at a reduced power level (unless the def has been disabled by a tuner), when the urea tank is empty. Some countries might have legal requirements in a situation where the def tank is empty, based on emissions, that are stricter, but that has nothing to do with the engines ability to run without def. I dont know the legal requirements in every country, but from an engineering standpoint it's not a problem to run a diesel engine at full power without def (but nox emissions will increase).

BTW I work as an engineer in the automotive field.

Good for you, being an engineer. Since I work for the manufacturer, and have for the past 16+ years, I know a pretty fair amount about the exhaust and all emissions systems on BMWs as well. Ask any owner of a BMW diesel what happens if/when they get low on DEF, you get a count down starting at 1000 miles that the fluid is low, and they should contact their service center and warns the driver that the engine will not restart after 1000 miles- when the tank is empty. This is fact. Some owners may not have seen this message before as the fluid capacity is designed to make it between services. The owners who drive hard or tow frequently are more likely to see this message.

Ask any tow truck driver the #1 reason they tow any truck equipped with an exhaust fluid system and/or DPF. They'll tell you that it's related to the emissions controls every time. The engine may start and run, but only just above idle and no boost. Unless it's a Ford, then they get towed when the engines blow up....

So as I stated, you clearly still do not know what you're talking about and should refrain from pretending you do.

[MilehighM3]

Originally Posted by BIMMER_Tech 631

Yea, so someone like you who understands how direct injection works is all I need to back me up. I know for a fact that GM, Ford, Mercedes and many other car manufacturers are using TK (same company that produced BMW's carbon blasting machine) to carbon blast their cars as well. No proof is needed as the ignorant member above requested. But you are 100% correct sir, dry ports are going to have buildup no matter what.

Right, I'm the ignorant one and you have no factual support for your theory. You should like a know it all apprentice at an independent shop who hasn't seen a new enough car to know the difference. The valves are always dry and only exposed to intake air in your opinion? So you're unfamiliar with the term overlap and unaware of what that accomplishes as well, or at least your posts indicate. I recommend you do some reading on overlap, then add the vanos adjustment range of the current BMW engines you claim have carbon buildup issues and then rethink your theory. Then, add to that the detergents in good fuel, engine oil and then actually take the time to inspect cars before posting misinformation. Ask the N54 crowd how well water/meth injection counteracts their carbon buildup. News flash, it doesn't eliminate it at all. Reduce it, maybe slightly. Not enough to say they never have to clean their intake valves any more. After that, jump over to the M57y forum and read how bad their issues are. Properly maintaining a vehicle has a lot more of an impact on buildup than any form of upstream injection system.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by MilehighM3

Good for you, being an engineer. Since I work for the manufacturer, and have for the past 16+ years, I know a pretty fair amount about the exhaust and all emissions systems on BMWs as well. Ask any owner of a BMW diesel what happens if/when they get low on DEF, you get a count down starting at 1000 miles that the fluid is low, and they should contact their service center and warns the driver that the engine will not restart after 1000 miles- when the tank is empty. This is fact. Some owners may not have seen this message before as the fluid capacity is designed to make it between services. The owners who drive hard or tow frequently are more likely to see this message.

Ask any tow truck driver the #1 reason they tow any truck equipped with an exhaust fluid system and/or DPF. They'll tell you that it's related to the emissions controls every time. The engine may start and run, but only just above idle and no boost. Unless it's a Ford, then they get towed when the engines blow up....

So as I stated, you clearly still do not know what you're talking about and should refrain from pretending you do.

Your position at "the manufacturer" can't be in the engineering dept or in an international capacity...

As I pointed out, but which you seem to continue to ignore, legal requirements in some countries might mean that you can't drive above a certain speed when the tank is empty. In other countries the exact same spec engine runs full power WITHOUT def even installed. While in other countries there is a lower power level, but not to the same degree as in the first example.

The US seem to have the strictest legislation, where it seems top speed is restricted to 5 MPH if you run out of urea. But that is because of federal legislation related to emissions and nox in particular, NOT because the diesel engine couldnt run at full power without the def system working. When that same car/engine is sold in Europe, there is no "max 5 MPH speed limit" required. So the manufacturer changes the software and allows the car to run according to what EU laws allow.

Dont confuse legal requirements with science...

Def reduces NOX but it doesn't influence the engines combustion process or it's operation, unlike water injection. So, from a technical standpoint, there is no difference to a diesel engines combustion process and ability to run at full power, with or without def. Which is why some truck owners, in particular, choose to disable it via tuning (save money on urea and the hassle of refilling), and often even increase hp at the same time (by adding fuel and boost through the same tuner software). But then again, nox levels skyrockets...

From your examples I take it you live in the US. You live in a country that has probably the strictest requirements on nox emissions from cars in the world. But dont simply look at what happens in your country, when a diesel powered car/truck runs out of urea, as a definite answer. That you have to tow trucks that have run out of urea in your country is just because they are all limited to max 5 MPH by the law! Not because the diesel engine couldnt operate at full power.

Read this article and perhaps you can understand how it works a little bit better

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/exp...asic-training/

Some information about AdBlue in Europe:

http://sk.greenchem-adblue.com/files...on_booklet.pdf

And New Zealand:

http://sk.greenchem-adblue.com/files...on_booklet.pdf

As you can see, they all refer to derating as a legal requirement (and only if necessary to be maintain legal nox limits).

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by MilehighM3

Good for you, being an engineer. Since I work for the manufacturer, and have for the past 16+ years, I know a pretty fair amount about the exhaust and all emissions systems on BMWs as well. Ask any owner of a BMW diesel what happens if/when they get low on DEF, you get a count down starting at 1000 miles that the fluid is low, and they should contact their service center and warns the driver that the engine will not restart after 1000 miles- when the tank is empty. This is fact. Some owners may not have seen this message before as the fluid capacity is designed to make it between services. The owners who drive hard or tow frequently are more likely to see this message.

Ask any tow truck driver the #1 reason they tow any truck equipped with an exhaust fluid system and/or DPF. They'll tell you that it's related to the emissions controls every time. The engine may start and run, but only just above idle and no boost. Unless it's a Ford, then they get towed when the engines blow up....

So as I stated, you clearly still do not know what you're talking about and should refrain from pretending you do.

Could you technically explain what prevents a diesel engine from running without urea injection?

[David70]

I don't see the refill being a big deal, I occasionally add windshield washer and don't worry too much about it either. Depends how often, if once every two weeks but I get higher mpg and higher hp both, I'm in. 13% lower fuel consumption make adding some water at the same time as the gas a decent savings (then the higher hp on top).

[E90Fleet]

Water injection only requires a small amount of water to be kept on board. On average, it only has to be refilled every 3,000 kilometers. The separate water tank has to be filled with distilled water.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1301010

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by 08njSTEP

I stand corrected. On my little phone screen it looked like the only injector with Bosch logo was center one. My bad. I can't really Invision buying distilled water with every few fill ups. I don't get the diesel ad blue either. Seems like a real pita.

If you only have a "few" fill ups during 3000km of driving you really don't use a lot of fuel...

Say you have a car that uses around 1l/10km (which is roughly what a regular straight six BMW model uses in mixed driving conditions) and it has a 70l tank (F10 size).

That means you can drive 70km on every tank of fuel. With a range of 3000km between fill ups of distilled water, that means you have to refill distilled water every 42 times you fill fuel... Or to put it in a different way, with an average annual driving distance of 15000km, you would have to refill the water injection system 5 times a year...

I think I could live with that