6MT or DCT?

[Mr. Hankey]

Screw you guys...I'm going home...

[CSanto]

Dude drive the car. Sport plus is not "hyper sensitive". If you want to turn it off, drive it in sport plus.

Come on people is this really a thread?

[Mr. Hankey]

Originally Posted by CSanto

Dude drive the car. Sport plus is not "hyper sensitive". If you want to turn it off, drive it in sport plus.

Come on people is this really a thread?

Well...I was going to start a thread and possibly a poll pending interest in pink vs black car seats for the F80...

Then found a purple/black beauty that matches her perfectly! Noone's going to want to street race me now +30 HP

[Projectile]

Rev matching on up shifts does happen.

Proving it has nothing to do with one's experience in a bunch of other cars. Here's how you do it:

Accelerate in first gear to about 6,000 rpm. Clutch in and hold it in. Pull gear lever to second. Do this exactly as you would for a normal up shift - at exactly the same pace - except hold the clutch in. As you are doing all that, the rpm will NOT drop to idle as they would if up shifts were not rev matched. What will happen is that rpm will drop to computer rev matched rpm and computer will hold the rpm there for a few seconds. Then, after a few seconds of rev matching, rpm will drop to idle.

This is what happens. I've purposely done just this test. Do it yourself and you will see.

[AMPowerJ]

Originally Posted by Projectile

Rev matching on up shifts does happen.

Proving it has nothing to do with one's experience. Here's how you do it:

Accelerate in first gear to about 6,000 rpm. Clutch in and hold it in. Pull gear lever to second. Do this exactly as you would for a normal up shift - at exactly the same pace - except hold the clutch in. As you are doing all that, the rpm will NOT drop to idle as they would if up shifts were not rev matched. What will happen is that rpm will drop to computer rev matched rpm and computer will hold the rpm there for a few seconds. Then, after a few seconds of rev matching, rpm will drop to idle.

This is what happens. I've purposely done just this test. Do it yourself and you will see.

I agree that in all modes except Sport+ rev matching is there for BOTH down and up shifting. I didn't realize how lazy I was getting with up shifts until I switched to Sport+ mode the other day and proceeded to execute jerky shifts while just cruising around. Like it or not but the 6MT with rev matching is not your father's manual transmission. But I find it a nice blend between the old school manual and the somewhat boring DCT.

[Blksnowflake]

This thread is dumtarded. It's like trying to convince someone why blue is your favourite color.....and why it's "better" than red......

[VCP]

Originally Posted by Projectile

"Because it's more engaging or fun" - right?

But if the 6MT in the M4 rev matches for you, then what you call "engaging" is just going through the motions, and what you call "fun" is, embarrassingly, just posing. I suppose you still have to launch the car, but that's a small fraction of the engagement and fun of driving a MT.

Sure, you can turn the rev matching off, but from what I've read in other threads around here, you can't do so without also accepting a throttle map that is hyper sensitive. I bet that most people rarely use this feature.

If BMW had made it possible to turn rev matching off/on no strings attached, then this could be a real 6 MT, but otherwise, it seems like a glorified automatic, and the DCT makes much more sense. The only motion you have to go through is pulling a paddle which'll be much faster.

I'm not a troll. This is really where I'm at in my thinking about the M4 transmission. I had a DCT e92 and I traded it out for one with a 6MT because I wanted a more engaging and fun car. But when contemplating what M4 to get, I think I might get the DCT. Or just stick with my e92.

You think wrong. I still have 2 DCT E92's, one with 700hp and have driven many 6sp E92's. The DCT is very suited for the high revving S65. It's a bit of a different story with the S55. I went through this thought process over a year ago before going to Welt and getting my M4 in June. I opted for 6spd as the engine has many different characters to it. You can be a gear too tall and it really is not relevant due to the huge TQ. The S65 does not work this way. I know that if you are on a track and ultimately fast lap times are key than DCT will suit, but if street driving is primary I would not opt DCT over 6spd in the M4. I've had a year now to give this a honest effort and I stand behind my 6spd in the S55 platform, again if street enjoyment is your primary. It is the best BMW manual trans I have driven.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by rhk118

This is true only if you don't know how to shift. You can shift very quickly with this gearbox (sweet spot right in the middle). Presumably the turbos are spooled while you are shifting. Therefore the leftover pressure in the intake from the boost keeps revs up a bit between shifts compared to a NA engine so there's a slight delay in engine rev drop in pretty much every turbo car I've ever driven, and this car the same. No need to trail the throttle in the 6MT in this car unless you are taking your time between shifts, it actually keeps it just right, and the computer doesn't seem to be intervening in any mode. So yes there is "rev-matching" in upshifts but its secondary to momentary boost pressure and not some wizard hidden in the glove box (or tied up in the trunk).

For me I love the 6MT and honestly would be bored with the DCT unless I was on a track. This is the 2nd best MT I have ever driven (tough to beat an early 90's Miata) and I love it. Rev matching is weird at first but now I actually like it, but sport+ turns that off and I don't find it too touchy for daily "spirited" driving...on a race course sport+ might be too aggressive at the limit, but then again I know the rev matching would prevent me from upsetting the car with a poorly executed blip going into a turn swinging that gorgeous ass around...which I actually appreciate since this is my daily driver, and not a race car.

I went 6MT for these reasons:
1. Nostalgia - what a GREAT transmission this is. Great feel, gear ratios are great, there are no dogs in that box, great rolling acceleration and looking at the ratios possibly faster rolling acceleration than DCT...its close
2. Control - hey, at least I know when its in park AND neutral (DCT would drive me mad)
3. Control - I drive in snow and ice, engine braking is a godsend
4. Engine braking in general - For routine driving I hardly ever use the brake until I need to actually stop....just love that about a manual
5. Shifting the 6MT in this car actually distracts from the lack of steering feel that this car suffers from (precise yet numb sums it up), so I'm not thinking about it - if I were driving a DCT then that's pretty much what I'd be focused on
6. Manuals - this potentially may be one of the last sub-100K cars you will be able to get a true manual in. I hope I'm wrong but...

Choose what you will. The 0.2 seconds I lose off the line to 60 I'm not going to miss. The true enjoyment I get from driving a manual with both the conscious and unconscious elements of control just outweighs paddle shifting to me. I feel I would get bored daily driving a DCT...but would love racing one. 6MT would be engaging in both scenarios. Rev-matching is new to me but I actually like it, and don't feel I'm sacrificing anything by using it...I can still heel-toe, I can still blip, I can turn it off...The car is epic, I honestly would take one in each transmission. They're both great. The DCT technology is just sick, and BMW has Porsche beat right now with this transmission. Good luck! You might miss the engine and steering feel of your old car more than anything, and therefore this a moot post.

I only use engine braking to slow down if I am descending a steep hill regardless of what type of transmission the car is equipped with but engine braking is available in the DCT and in the Steptronic 8 speed if the transmission is being driven in manual mode.

CA

[3er]

[shainblm]

Just get whatever you want for any reason ... they are all awesome i don't wait to see how many pedals you have on the floor before i come over to tell you sweet ride!

[dmnc02]

Originally Posted by Projectile

Rev matching on up shifts does happen.

This is also consistent with what BMW says in the "F80-82 Complete Vehicle" Technical Training document:
"The engine speed during a gear change is automatically adapted to the new transmission ratio. The engine and the transmission input shaft thus have the same speed when engaging the clutch. This ensures the clutch is always engaged smoothly."
It says "gear change" in general, not "downshift".

BTW, I just noticed that, according to the document, "speed adaptation" can be turned off by setting DSC to "off" rather than by switching the throttle response to "Sport+": I was not aware of this, so I have not confirmed it in my car yet.

Also, "The engine speed adaptation can be deactivated via the diagnosis system." Does anybody know how to do this?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...89381419,d.cWc

[theriz]

Originally Posted by FC4

Of all the threads you post in and subsequently ruin, you make one normal post in this one then leave? C'mon now...start talking about the color of your dog's poop or your usual inane banter to round up all the simple ones and fade this thread to nothingness.

Thanks.

He said it he said it!!!

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

No it doesn't

Go ahead and drive one and shift from 1-2 without touching the throttle. Tell me if the shift is rev matched. Here's a hint, it's not

Yes it most certainly does. Rev-matching in both up and down shifts occurs in all mode other than Sport +.

When shifting from any gear into a higher gear (upshift), the ECU will hold throttle at the precise RPM matched for the next given gear. It will hold RPM there for a split second, then drop it to idle. This allows for a somewhat lazier dis-engagement of the clutch.

In Sport + mode, this clearly doesn't take place so you must be precise in your clutch dis-engagement and throttle input.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by VCP

It is the best BMW manual trans I have driven.

[///M///]

By far the dumbest thread for this week Anyone who says that the rev matching is what separates a manual from a auto is qualifies as a complete Moron If you had just stated that you dislike the rev match feature in the Manual and left it at that it would have made a lot more sense.

I have driven a manual for 18 years of my 40 years spent on earth and trust me when I tell you that the rev matching feature does not convert it to an auto. You still need your left leg and the right hand or you will be stationary.

[VCP]

Originally Posted by dsm918

By far the dumbest thread for this week Anyone who says that the rev matching is what separates a manual from a auto is qualifies as a complete Moron If you had just stated that you dislike the rev match feature in the Manual and left it at that it would have made a lot more sense.

I have driven a manual for 18 years of my 40 years spent on earth and trust me when I tell you that the rev matching feature does not convert it to an auto. You still need your left leg and the right hand or you will be stationary.

Thank you

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by dmnc02

This is also consistent with what BMW says in the "F80-82 Complete Vehicle" Technical Training document:
"The engine speed during a gear change is automatically adapted to the new transmission ratio. The engine and the transmission input shaft thus have the same speed when engaging the clutch. This ensures the clutch is always engaged smoothly."
It says "gear change" in general, not "downshift".

BTW, I just noticed that, according to the document, "speed adaptation" can be turned off by setting DSC to "off" rather than by switching the throttle response to "Sport+": I was not aware of this, so I have not confirmed it in my car yet.

Also, "The engine speed adaptation can be deactivated via the diagnosis system." Does anybody know how to do this?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...89381419,d.cWc

If by that you mean rev matching would de-activate with dsc off? The answer to that is no, I've driven on track in sport with dsc off.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

Yes it most certainly does. Rev-matching in both up and down shifts occurs in all mode other than Sport +.

When shifting from any gear into a higher gear (upshift), the ECU will hold throttle at the precise RPM matched for the next given gear. It will hold RPM there for a split second, then drop it to idle. This allows for a somewhat lazier dis-engagement of the clutch.

In Sport + mode, this clearly doesn't take place so you must be precise in your clutch dis-engagement and throttle input.

My mistake then. I drive in both regularly and do not notice any difference on upshifts, with the exception of throttle response when going into the next gear

[hemi to e90]

i enjoy trying to convince people that my subjective perspectives are in fact an objective facts and usually universally applicable.

seriously we are basically going into this a troll is arguing about a feature that can be turned off.

ps

[Projectile]

Originally Posted by VCP

You think wrong. I still have 2 DCT E92's, one with 700hp and have driven many 6sp E92's. The DCT is very suited for the high revving S65. It's a bit of a different story with the S55. I went through this thought process over a year ago before going to Welt and getting my M4 in June. I opted for 6spd as the engine has many different characters to it. You can be a gear too tall and it really is not relevant due to the huge TQ. The S65 does not work this way. I know that if you are on a track and ultimately fast lap times are key than DCT will suit, but if street driving is primary I would not opt DCT over 6spd in the M4. I've had a year now to give this a honest effort and I stand behind my 6spd in the S55 platform, again if street enjoyment is your primary. It is the best BMW manual trans I have driven.

I can find much to agree with in this post. The DCT made more sense for the S65 and the MT makes more sense for the S55. Having said that, I still really enjoy the MT in my e92 and, in fact, chose it after having had a DCT e92 for 3 years.

Nobody needs to convince me of the fun and engagement of a MT with an S55 or any other engine, really. It's the rev matching feature that is required in all but Sport+ mode in the MT offered in the F8X's that concerns me.

If one could deactivate the rev match at whatever throttle map, I'd have no issue with this MT. But as it is, BMW forces one to use a different throttle map than one is used to just to deactivate rev matching. Not only that, but one must use the most sensitive throttle map just to do one's own rev matching.

If I end up driving out of Sport+ most of the time, why not get a DCT? In both situations, the computer does the fun/tricky part. What difference does it make if you flip a paddle or push a clutch and gear lever? Very little as far as I can see (nostalgia aside...)

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Projectile

What difference does it make if you flip a paddle or push a clutch and gear lever? Very little as far as I can see (nostalgia aside...)

No one is going to convince you that you are wrong. It is your opinion, even if it is wrong, and 4 pages of thread have not accomplished anything

[huatian]

Originally Posted by Projectile

"Because it's more engaging or fun" - right?

But if the 6MT in the M4 rev matches for you, then what you call "engaging" is just going through the motions, and what you call "fun" is, embarrassingly, just posing. I suppose you still have to launch the car, but that's a small fraction of the engagement and fun of driving a MT.

Sure, you can turn the rev matching off, but from what I've read in other threads around here, you can't do so without also accepting a throttle map that is hyper sensitive. I bet that most people rarely use this feature.

If BMW had made it possible to turn rev matching off/on no strings attached, then this could be a real 6 MT, but otherwise, it seems like a glorified automatic, and the DCT makes much more sense. The only motion you have to go through is pulling a paddle which'll be much faster.

I'm not a troll. This is really where I'm at in my thinking about the M4 transmission. I had a DCT e92 and I traded it out for one with a 6MT because I wanted a more engaging and fun car. But when contemplating what M4 to get, I think I might get the DCT. Or just stick with my e92.

Do a money shift and I'm sure you'll agree it's no automatic.