6MT or DCT?

[hemi to e90]

chris harris, and i don't say this often, said it best.

In the neo-manual phase, the stick will become the chronograph to the digital watch of the early 1980s – not as technically good on an Excel spreadsheet, but way more desirable. And capable of supporting a premium price.

http://jalopnik.com/rejoice-the-manu...ved-1688464485


yes, i am sort of calling manual drivers, myself included, hipsters. or "hipster-ish"

neo-hipster?

no let me switch gears, i don't think residuals on manual cars will go up.

[solstice]

"But that's precisely the issue that I raised in my post. If you like manual shifting because a computer makes it easy and smooth, then all you're really doing is pulling a lever and moving your foot most of the time. Why not just pull a paddle?"

If you need to ask that the DCT is the right choice for you. I'm raised on MTs and not once have I reflected over rev. matching as being a reason to drive an MT. It's about clutch control. That is what mainly sets it apart from an automatic. My last car was a DCT my F80 is an MT. I happen to like both types but it's a totally different experience to drive an MT to an auto/DCT with or without rev. match activated. Everyone who has driven an MT know this.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by RingMeister01

The ratios on the 6MT are better.

Agreed. I have long rant on that topic .

That 1st gear on DCT is bloody useless

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by solstice

"But that's precisely the issue that I raised in my post. If you like manual shifting because a computer makes it easy and smooth, then all you're really doing is pulling a lever and moving your foot most of the time. Why not just pull a paddle?"

If you need to ask that the DCT is the right choice for you. I'm raised on MTs and not once have I reflected over rev. matching as being a reason to drive an MT. It's about clutch control. That is what mainly sets it apart from an automatic. My last car was a DCT my F80 is an MT. I happen to like both types but it's a totally different experience to drive an MT to an auto/DCT with or without rev. match activated. Everyone who has driven an MT know this.

Can you elaborate on "Clutch Control"?

Thanks,

CA

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dmnc02

BTW, I just noticed that, according to the document, "speed adaptation" can be turned off by setting DSC to "off" rather than by switching the throttle response to "Sport+"

That is a very interesting find . Can anyone confirm this?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Projectile

Lots of people chime in and say that they like the rev matching feature. I strongly suspect that most MT owners use it most if not all of the time. And why not? I've driven it and it makes up- and down-shifts very smooth - perfect every time. Some comment about how badly they seem to shift with it turned off, which I also experienced when I test drove the F8x 6MT. (Of course, I'm better in my e926MT b/c I'm so used to it).

But that's precisely the issue that I raised in my post. If you like manual shifting because a computer makes it easy and smooth, then all you're really doing is pulling a lever and moving your foot most of the time. Why not just pull a paddle?

A rev-matched 6MT is getting close to a DCT. Don't freak out: I didn't say that it IS a DCT, or that there's no relevant difference with a DCT, or that it's not manly, but it is less engaging and in that sense, more like a DCT.

What I'm saying is that a rev-matched 6MT makes the choice between 6MT and DCT more difficult because if one is after engagement with the vehicle, having a computer match revs for you removes perhaps the most engaging thing about a MT. Moving an extra pedal and a gear lever becomes more "going through the motions" rather than using your skill to make the car do precisely what you want it to do. The skill of moving a third pedal and a lever is hardly worth mentioning compared to the skill required to pull a paddle.

Of course, having the computer rev match for you and making the experience "the best ever" can be fun. I would never deny what one considers subjectively fun. But my point is that, for me, some of that fun and so-called "engagement" would be lost in the knowledge that what the car in fact sounds like, feels like, and is doing is because of a computer, not me. A few others have had this insight in this thread, too.

We can have fun while experiencing illusions. Many of us do that all the time in other contexts. The Matrix can be a great place and some of us would choose the blue pill while others would choose the red. That doesn't mean that it isn't an interesting choice.

Yes, rev-matching can be turned off, but not without paying a price - a price that it seems most are not willing to pay. Judging by the responses in this long thread, it seems that most people don't drive in Sport+ much if at all ...

I guess I'm just wondering if I'm going to let a computer take away what seems to me to be the truly engaging component of a MT, why not let the computer give my left leg and my right arm a rest, too? Doing so also provides a fast, more efficient, and versatile transmission...

If you think that my raising these points makes me a troll, then you're the one who should grow a thicker skin. If a car forum isn't about discussing these kinds of issues (how transmissions are evolving and what effect they have on our appreciation of and interaction with a vehicle), then perhaps you're just here to have your subjective impressions coddled. And just because we have subjective impressions doesn't mean that we can't have a conversation about how legitimate they may be nor how auto manufacturers may try to manipulate them. Reflecting upon our subjective impressions can change them.

Reflecting upon our experiences and sharing them while seeking out others is what the journey is all about, isn't it?

They removed all driver involvement when they added synchros to manual transmissions. What engagement is there to be had shifting gears without having to double clutch

There will always be progress and that progress will affect how the driver interacts with the car. How we like or dislike the evolution of that interaction remains a very personal thing.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Can you elaborate on "Clutch Control"?

Thanks,

CA

Controlling the clutch

[tzsgti]

Every car i had with the exception of my STI had an option of a Manual or double clutch option. And on every forum this was a heated topic. I guess i need to find a car that is only available in auto or manual like my STI . The only issue is what would we discuss on the forum

In all serious though i have always been a DCT fan and i am going to order my M3 in DCT. This would be my 4th double clutch car . It is just so hard to argue for the manual when the DCTs keep getting better. Huge progress from my first car (GTI DSG) to my 135i DCT to my current 911 in PDK.

[rubber_ducky]

Originally Posted by Projectile

...I guess I'm just wondering if I'm going to let a computer take away what seems to me to be the truly engaging component of a MT, why not let the computer give my left leg and my right arm a rest, too? Doing so also provides a fast, more efficient, and versatile transmission...

You keep ignoring the idea that not everybody enjoys the same things as you for the same reasons as you. So fair enough, you're not a troll, you're just incredibly self righteous. So you have that going for you! Go ahead and let the computer take over for your left leg and your left arm. Nobody is going to try to stop you. If you don't already, maybe you can pick up smoking now that you have a free hand.

P.s. calling MT drivers posers isn't the same as having a discussion about the evolution of the automotive transmission.

P.p.s. Before i owned my MT F80, I owned a PDK 987 S. For a VERY short time before that, I had a DSG GTI. To me, regardless of whether I'm in sport+ or not, shifting gears is more engaging in my M3.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by solstice

Controlling the clutch

Well that clears it right up.

CA

[Projectile]

Originally Posted by rubber_ducky

P.s. calling MT drivers posers isn't the same as having a discussion about the evolution of the automotive transmission.

But surely you see how having a computer do the hard part, while one just mechanically pushes a pedal and a lever, can be considered "posing".

How many 6MT drivers around here downshift into 1st as they approach a crowded red light only to have the computer throttle blip perfectly so that when they let the pedal out, they get a perfect shift, and everybody notices the cool dude driving the manual, now gently revving the throttle at idle, and launching as the light turns green? Posing. You know it happens. And you know that downshift wouldn't have happened, and surely wouldn't have been very smooth, had it not been rev matched.

Originally Posted by rubber_ducky

P.p.s. Before i owned my MT F80, I owned a PDK 987 S. For a VERY short time before that, I had a DSG GTI. To me, regardless of whether I'm in sport+ or not, shifting gears is more engaging in my M3.

All I have argued is that part of what makes an MT engaging, perhaps the biggest part, has been lost in a rev matching MT. Notice that I have NOT argued that a rev-matched MT is not even the tiniest amount more engaging than a DCT. Only that a rev matched MT is getting closer to the disengagement of a DCT. Regardless of how may cars you've driven in the past (pedigree carries such little weight in these discussions and honestly ends up looking a little lame and embarrassing) can you really argue with that?

[BMdblU]

Been driving manual 8 years on BMW's - First M3 and first DCT. Love it wouldn't go back

[solstice]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Well that clears it right up.

CA

Having full control of the clutch. You can operate the clutch when you want and how you want. Fast,slow, hold for any time, dump, with or without shifting, etc.

[Powerslide]

You know - I just don't get the whole DCT v. 6MT rivalry - I happened to pick the DCT mainly because I cannot fathom driving a 6MT for 30+ miles each day in Chicago rush hour traffic - and I also happen to think that both transmissions are great...

If I lived in an area where traffic was lighter I certainly would have considered 6MT - but in my opinion the DCT is so damn good I most likely still would have gone for DCT anyway...

I have nothing against the 6MT though even as a DCT driver. I've driven the 6MT both in the E9x and F8x generations - I happened to like the F8x iteration better. What I cannot stand, however, are the people who think that just because 6MT is best for them - that therefore 6MT necessarily has to be the better choice for everyone else...

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

You know - I just don't get the whole DCT v. 6MT rivalry - I happened to pick the DCT mainly because I cannot fathom driving a 6MT for 30+ miles each day in Chicago rush hour traffic - and I also happen to think that both transmissions are great...

If I lived in an area where traffic was lighter I certainly would have considered 6MT - but in my opinion the DCT is so damn good I most likely still would have gone for DCT anyway...

I have nothing against the 6MT though even as a DCT driver. I've driven the 6MT both in the E9x and F8x generations - I happened to like the F8x iteration better. What I cannot stand, however, are the people who think that just because 6MT is best for them - that therefore 6MT necessarily has to be the better choice for everyone else...

+1
I like both but there is no doubt they offer a very different driving experience in both execution and control. Pros and cons on both sides but none is anywhere close to be a full substitute for the other. There's no shame in selecting one or the other but there should also be no harm in discussing differences in the types or why one opt for one or the other.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by solstice

+1
I like both but there is no doubt they offer a very different driving experience in both execution and control. Pros and cons on both sides but none is anywhere close to be a full substitute for the other. There's no shame in selecting one or the other but there should also be no harm in discussing differences in the types or why one opt for one or the other.

I think you just hit the nail on the head... Now we just need to get everyone else to "see the light...." [easier said than done - LOL]!

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Projectile

But surely you see how having a computer do the hard part, while one just mechanically pushes a pedal and a lever, can be considered "posing".

How many 6MT drivers around here downshift into 1st as they approach a crowded red light only to have the computer throttle blip perfectly so that when they let the pedal out, they get a perfect shift, and everybody notices the cool dude driving the manual, now gently revving the throttle at idle, and launching as the light turns green? Posing. You know it happens. And you know that downshift wouldn't have happened, and surely wouldn't have been very smooth, had it not been rev matched.



All I have argued is that part of what makes an MT engaging, perhaps the biggest part, has been lost in a rev matching MT. Notice that I have NOT argued that a rev-matched MT is not even the tiniest amount more engaging than a DCT. Only that a rev matched MT is getting closer to the disengagement of a DCT. Regardless of how may cars you've driven in the past (pedigree carries such little weight in these discussions and honestly ends up looking a little lame and embarrassing) can you really argue with that?

This is really a lot of hogwash

[CSanto]

The best part about owning the stick is the proceeding conversation when people ask me if its a stick or not.
With the F80 -
Them: Is that thing a stick
Me: Yeah Man I love it
Them: Awesome!

With my E92 -
Them: Is that thing a stick
Me: No, it's a Dual clutch transmission...kinda like F1 style with the paddles.
Them: Ohh yeah...my car is an automatic, it has the paddles too.
Me: Yeah....its like that....

[Onewheeldrive]

I'm not here to feed the trolls, just to reflect on my decision to scour the state of CA to find a 6MT for my M4. Let me first say that every driver is entitled to their opinion and choice of options (that is, until manufacturers remove the three pedal option, which seems to be looming closer).

Having daily driven an E39 M5 for some time (my first BMW, thankfully only available in a 6MT), owned and tracked several Ducati motorcycles, and ultimately, enjoying the deliberate nature of manual selecting and engaging gears, to me, the three pedal setup was the only choice for me. I would never assert that it's faster in a straight line or around a track, because I know it definitely is not. Were I competing every Saturday for gentleman racer trophies, I may have reconsidered my choice for tenths off a lap time. As a daily driven sports car that I vigorously enjoy feeling connected to, any computer intervention lessens the experience. When I test drove the DCT, even in manual mode, I was often surprised by the computer's decision to drop a gear, and in one case, severely jeopardize traction. I love the swell of a third gear run from low RPMs. May not be as fast as a lightning fast DS to second and a double-clutched shift to third, but shouldn't that be my decision to make? While I'm on the topic, traction control, in the interest of maintaining grip can often do exactly the opposite of its intention. Any seasoned driver knows that in many cases of instability, power to the wheels is often the only way out of trouble. I want access to all WHP and TQ. If I wanted to drive a sub 400hp car, I'd have bought one.

From a technological standpoint, I know the DCT is superior to the nearly 100 year old technology of a manual transmission. BMW engineers have been working obviously quite hard improving the tech since the release of the terrible SMG. It's driveability has improved 10-fold and I can actually say that I did enjoy driving one, but simply not as much as I enjoy the deliberate blip of throttle and perfectly-timed clutch release that sends me off the line.

At the end of the day, there's an ass for every seat. We should applaud every F8X driver for having similarly good taste for choosing one of the best driver cars out there, not lambasting them for choosing a different way to enjoy it. Drive on!

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Onewheeldrive

I'm not here to feed the trolls, just to reflect on my decision to scour the state of CA to find a 6MT for my M4. Let me first say that every driver is entitled to their opinion and choice of options (that is, until manufacturers remove the three pedal option, which seems to be looming closer).

Having daily driven an E39 M5 for some time (my first BMW, thankfully only available in a 6MT), owned and tracked several Ducati motorcycles, and ultimately, enjoying the deliberate nature of manual selecting and engaging gears, to me, the three pedal setup was the only choice for me. I would never assert that it's faster in a straight line or around a track, because I know it definitely is not. Were I competing every Saturday for gentleman racer trophies, I may have reconsidered my choice for tenths off a lap time. As a daily driven sports car that I vigorously enjoy feeling connected to, any computer intervention lessens the experience. When I test drove the DCT, even in manual mode, I was often surprised by the computer's decision to drop a gear, and in one case, severely jeopardize traction. I love the swell of a third gear run from low RPMs. May not be as fast as a lightning fast DS to second and a double-clutched shift to third, but shouldn't that be my decision to make? While I'm on the topic, traction control, in the interest of maintaining grip can often do exactly the opposite of its intention. Any seasoned driver knows that in many cases of instability, power to the wheels is often the only way out of trouble. I want access to all WHP and TQ. If I wanted to drive a sub 400hp car, I'd have bought one.

From a technological standpoint, I know the DCT is superior to the nearly 100 year old technology of a manual transmission. BMW engineers have been working obviously quite hard improving the tech since the release of the terrible SMG. It's driveability has improved 10-fold and I can actually say that I did enjoy driving one, but simply not as much as I enjoy the deliberate blip of throttle and perfectly-timed clutch release that sends me off the line.

At the end of the day, there's an ass for every seat. We should applaud every F8X driver for having similarly good taste for choosing one of the best driver cars out there, not lambasting them for choosing a different way to enjoy it. Drive on!

Well said

[Krish_1]

Originally Posted by Projectile

All I have argued is that part of what makes an MT engaging, perhaps the biggest part, has been lost in a rev matching MT. Notice that I have NOT argued that a rev-matched MT is not even the tiniest amount more engaging than a DCT. Only that a rev matched MT is getting closer to the disengagement of a DCT. Regardless of how may cars you've driven in the past (pedigree carries such little weight in these discussions and honestly ends up looking a little lame and embarrassing) can you really argue with that?

Dude, there are two options. I picked the option that I found engaging, entertaining, fun, and put a smile on my face (6MT!). So should you! Stop arguing already.

[3er]

Originally Posted by CSanto

The best part about owning the stick is the proceeding conversation when people ask me if its a stick or not.
With the F80 -
Them: Is that thing a stick
Me: Yeah Man I love it
Them: Awesome!

With my E92 -
Them: Is that thing a stick
Me: No, it's a Dual clutch transmission...kinda like F1 style with the paddles.
Them: Ohh yeah...my car is an automatic, it has the paddles too.
Me: Yeah....its like that....

Lololol...this is the best!