04-23-2014, 09:16 AM | #111 | |
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I should probably make you aware that if you had a 135i even more so if it was tuned, a lot will irritate you in that car. Like someone said, the chassis is to heavy for the way the tq is delivered. I drove my friends DCT E92 M3 and I wanted to get out of it in 10 minutes because even with the amazing sound, it's street qualities were nearly useless under 100 MPH.
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04-23-2014, 09:17 AM | #112 | |
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04-23-2014, 09:18 AM | #113 | |
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During part throttle driving the volume of exhaust isn't big enough to over rev the turbos, and keeping the wastegates shut means that the exhaust is used to keep the turbos spinning, ready for action. Obviously having them shut means more heat and higher fuel consumption, which is why the function is only available in Sport and Sport+ Or am I missing something? |
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04-23-2014, 09:19 AM | #114 | ||
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04-23-2014, 09:20 AM | #115 | |
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Because of this I worte "S65 with the old M-DCT gearbox" ... IŽam shure the aktive M-Differential would work also with an S65 engine layout. All other (new) parts would work in the same manner either with the S55 or the S65. Both engines weights the same, so I could find no reason for other special treatment an S65 would need in an F8x to be fast. |
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04-23-2014, 09:22 AM | #116 | |
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04-23-2014, 09:27 AM | #117 | |
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By doing so, you minimize lag and get prompt throttle response. There is probably much more wizardry going on with the Valvetronic and DI though. Last edited by CanAutM3; 04-23-2014 at 09:34 AM.. |
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04-23-2014, 09:31 AM | #118 | |
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E46 S54 I6 to E9X S65 V8 E90 N52 I6 to F30 N20 turbo 4 E6X M5/6 S85 to F10/F12 M5/6 V8 S63 R3X GTR RB26 I6 to R35 VR38 V6 TT These are just some of many examples. Usually when huge automotive companies like BMW, MB, Audi, Porsche, Nissan, Toyota etc. develop cars, they ensure that the next generation car exceeds it's predecessor in every aspect. |
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04-23-2014, 09:32 AM | #119 | |
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On a DI engine you can easily run an engine at stratified charge (more air than what is needed in relation to fuel injected) and still have no issues with detonation etc. Torque delivery is regulated by the fuel injected, not the amount of air going to the engine, or boost pressure. To me, it makes perfect sense to do what BMW says they do in regards to running the wastegates shut. Turbos are ready to roll, eliminate lag and torque delivery is regulated by throttle input (and thereby fuel injected). IMHO, this creates a more predictable (or NA like) power delivery since you don't have to wait for the turbos to spool up. |
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04-23-2014, 09:38 AM | #120 | ||
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04-23-2014, 09:41 AM | #121 | |
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Based on what you said, thats my starting question - why didn't car makers all go turbo until now that turbo only starts getting popular? Thank for sharing. |
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04-23-2014, 09:48 AM | #122 | |
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To add to that, the only serious NA performance V8 left in this world with less than a 5.0L displacement is the one found in the Ferrari 458 (a $300k car and even they are realizing the benefits of turbocharging.) Sound aside, I can't think of a single advantage to an NA engine.
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04-23-2014, 09:54 AM | #123 | |
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And you simply forget one the best trackcars ever ... the Porsche GT3 and GT3-RS. The only reason why for me S65 and S55 are comparable, is because they are in the same hp-class ... if the new M3/M4 would get an turbo engine in the ~500hp class, none ever would compare it with an S65 equiped car. Yes IŽam an fan of the S65, but I have nothing aganist turbo engine ... there are many really great turbo engines on the market, but with nearly the same hp like the S65 the S55 only change the driving charakter of the M3, there are many other, not engine related, improvements, that makes the F8x so much faster than the e9xM3 and to "the best M3 ever" |
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04-23-2014, 09:54 AM | #124 | |
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Apart from that, recent EU emissions requirements means that there is less and less room for thirsty and big volume NA engines. Downsizing to meet MPG and CO2 emission requirements are major reasons manufacturers are looking at smaller engines with turbos. (Apart from Mitsubishi that is looking at keeping large(ish) displacement but extremely high compression ratios to achieve the same thing. I believe they are at 16:1 on a petrol engine now!!!) |
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04-23-2014, 10:02 AM | #125 | |
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The Gt3 and GT3rs cost 1.5 x to 2 x an M3. They are much lighter cars and the engines are built on a completely different architecture with a completely different valve technology (one that costs double) as a Gt3 rs will cost nearly $140K usd. I will ask a simpler question... in keeping with the NA motors, how could BMW have improved on the S65? Larger displacement? Honest question.
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04-23-2014, 10:03 AM | #126 |
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The power graph seems to indicate that the new M3/M4 will not be a lot slower to my F10 M5 in the straights...
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04-23-2014, 10:06 AM | #127 | |
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The naturally aspirated engines deliver their power with far less urgency. There's a feeling of anticipation as you climb the RPM range, but the up-side is that (at least with the S65), it keeps making power all the way to the top. A turbocharged engine hits you with a lump of torque down low, and while power output is maintained in to the higher RPM range, torque usually drops off, so you get a very different feel. I can appreciate both. I'm not interested in the E92 so much for its ultimate performance as I am the overall experience. I'm actually banking on the fact that most people don't have the same priorities as me I'm looking for a price drop. Of course, everyone who has the same priorities as me believes that the E92 is going to be some kind of collectors car and that no one is going to want an F82. I think that's preposterous. The mass-market doesn't give two-shits about the things that I care about.
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04-23-2014, 10:08 AM | #128 | |
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I think that it would be better to wait for test drives of the new car before we conclude that the S65 engine and DCT would be quicker in this car than the S55 engine will be. In fact, the S55 will provide significantly better acceleration times than the S65 would and only if the S55 is "un driveable" on a track would the S65 be able to claw that advantage back. And, there is nothing about the S65 engine that makes a F8x with a hypothetical S65 engine corner faster than a F8x with the S55... Exactly where (which parts of the track) would a S65 powered F8x be faster than a S55 powered F8x? |
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04-23-2014, 10:11 AM | #129 | |
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04-23-2014, 10:11 AM | #130 | |
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Thanks to all for responding and clarifying. I'm new to this and have certainly learnt from this forum. Cheers! |
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04-23-2014, 10:12 AM | #131 | |
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Regardless, the subtleties of chassis tuning aren't what would make the big difference. The difference in power between the S55 and S65 is enough for the S55 to come out on top, despite your claims that it is some kind of wildly uncontrollable beast. I think you're just so in love with the S65, you can't think rationally.
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04-23-2014, 10:15 AM | #132 |
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Well put. The GT2 vs GT3 is probably the best apples-to-apples comparison you'll find of a turbocharged vs N/A configuration in the same production chassis, and it destroys the argument that the tractability -- or lack thereof -- of a turbocharged engine makes a car slower around a track.
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