I weighed my 2015 M4 and 2017 M4 ZCP at the same time

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

I'm going to disagree here. While the E9x and S65 engine had soul in spades - to say the F8x has none is completely opposite of my own experience. Excluding sound, the way the F8x accelerates, corners flat, slams through the gears, can powerslide much more at will, etc. makes it feel like it has more "soul" in those respects vs. the E9x.

Seems to me that people often define "soul" as 90% sound, with all other factors combined representing the remaining 10%. First, the "civic" M3/M4 with the version 58.3 software update makes the sound vastly improved. Excluding sound, again - the F8x is far more exciting to drive - and there is no way I'd go back to the E9x over the F8x even if both cars kept their stock exhaust sounds.

Either way - glad I had a chance to experience both generations!

I agree with this statement 100%.

[badbimmer]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

I'm going to disagree here. While the E9x and S65 engine had soul in spades - to say the F8x has none is completely opposite of my own experience. Excluding sound, the way the F8x accelerates, corners flat, slams through the gears, can powerslide much more at will, etc. makes it feel like it has more "soul" in those respects vs. the E9x.

Seems to me that people often define "soul" as 90% sound, with all other factors combined representing the remaining 10%. First, the "civic" M3/M4 with the version 58.3 software update makes the sound vastly improved. Excluding sound, again - the F8x is far more exciting to drive - and there is no way I'd go back to the E9x over the F8x even if both cars kept their stock exhaust sounds.

Either way - glad I had a chance to experience both generations!

E9x M3 is a very capable generation and does all you say in your first paragraph - acceleration, power slides, corners flat etc. Just as well as the F8x gen. and better in some respects certainly with its higher revving higher redline. It s a beast of a car and has the soul of an M car. And for those of you that say you owned one and it doesn't makes me think you never owned one and are a poseur, or your car lost its new car performance and you forgot how it performed when new. I drove an E92 M3 for 6 years and now own a 17 M3 ZCP.

There are certainly plusses and minuses to both cars, but the E9x gen is certainly not a wimpy version of the new series.

And I can't possibly imagine how a software update would "vastly" improve the sound of your car unless the update turned your "active sound" back on or made it louder.

And yes, sound is very important and gives "soul" to an automobile. Auto manufacturers go through great lengths and spend a great deal of time and effort to deliver an intoxicating sound because they know how important it is.... especially in a M. BMW couldnt do it in the F8x gen for some reason so they put in "active sound"... this PROVES the sound is severely lacking. What an embarrassment to drive a car where sound has to come through your speakers to give your car an acceptable sound. ... like a ricey Honda Civic.

For those of you that don't care about the sound of the car that's fine, but you probably should have bought a Tesla.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

I'm going to disagree here. While the E9x and S65 engine had soul in spades - to say the F8x has none is completely opposite of my own experience. Excluding sound, the way the F8x accelerates, corners flat, slams through the gears, can powerslide much more at will, etc. makes it feel like it has more "soul" in those respects vs. the E9x.

Seems to me that people often define "soul" as 90% sound, with all other factors combined representing the remaining 10%. First, the "civic" M3/M4 with the version 58.3 software update makes the sound vastly improved. Excluding sound, again - the F8x is far more exciting to drive - and there is no way I'd go back to the E9x over the F8x even if both cars kept their stock exhaust sounds.

Either way - glad I had a chance to experience both generations!

From my own perspective, it's not the F8X that has less soul than the E9X, but rather the S55 compared to the S65. But I disagree it is 90% in sound. It is also in the ultra sharp throttle response and the linear torque curve that keeps pulling all the way to the high redline. Having tasted the F82, I would also not go back to my E92. But the S55 does feel less special/race-car-derived than the S54 or S65 did, particularly on the daily drive. I actually find the chassis of the F8X to have more charcter than the E9X. It feels more playful, nimble and agile on its feet.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by badbimmer

E9x M3 is a very capable generation and does all you say in your first paragraph - acceleration, power slides, corners flat etc. Just as well as the F8x gen. and better in some respects certainly with its higher revving higher redline. It s a beast of a car and has the soul of an M car. And for those of you that say you owned one and it doesn't makes me think you never owned one and are a poseur, or your car lost its new car performance and you forgot how it performed when new. I drove an E92 M3 for 6 years and now own a 17 M3 ZCP.

There are certainly plusses and minuses to both cars, but the E9x gen is certainly not a wimpy version of the new series.

And I can't possibly imagine how a software update would "vastly" improve the sound of your car unless the update turned your "active sound" back on or made it louder.

And yes, sound is very important and gives "soul" to an automobile. Auto manufacturers go through great lengths and spend a great deal of time and effort to deliver an intoxicating sound because they know how important it is.... especially in a M. BMW couldnt do it in the F8x gen for some reason so they put in "active sound"... this PROVES the sound is severely lacking. What an embarrassment to drive a car where sound has to come through your speakers to give your car an acceptable sound. ... like a ricey Honda Civic.

For those of you that don't care about the sound of the car that's fine, but you probably should have bought a Tesla.

...my M4 actually sounds better with ASD shut off. So I would not agree with you here.

I get compliments on how good my M4 sounds almost on a daily basis (I do have an MPE on my civic M4). While it sounds nowhere as good as my E92 did, to say that the sound is an embarrassment is a gross exageration.

[badbimmer]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

From my own perspective, it's not the F8X that has less soul than the E9X, but rather the S55 compared to the S65. But I disagree it is 90% in sound. It is also in the ultra sharp throttle response and the linear torque curve that keeps pulling all the way to the high redline. Having tasted the F82, I would also not go back to my E92. But the S55 does feel less special/race-car-derived than the S54 or S65 did, particularly on the daily drive. I actually find the chassis of the F8X to have more charcter than the E9X. It feels more playful, nimble and agile on its feet.

No, I think you got it right. The f8x platform is lacking M soul. Powerful car though.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by badbimmer

No, I think you got it right. The f8x platform is lacking M soul. Powerful car though.

You got me wrong. The F8X chassis has plenty of ///M soul, more so than the E9X. It's the S55 that I find lacking when compared to the S54 and S65.

[badbimmer]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You got me wrong. The F8X chassis has plenty of ///M soul, more so than the E9X. It's the S55 that I find lacking when compared to the S54 and S65.

The engine is the heart of the car. That's what made the e9x incredible and gave it soul. Put the s55 into an e9x and your left with a soulless vehicle .

So I guess we agree.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by badbimmer

The engine is the heart of the car. That's what made the e9x incredible and gave it soul. Put the s55 into an e9x and your left with a soulless vehicle .

So I guess we agree.

I don't think we do.

For me, the chassis is also a key component of the character of a car. A good engine in a bad chassis isn't worth much to me.

[knightarmor]

The engine def. does not give a car soul. An E9X engine in a Smart (or Dumb car depending on how you look at it) car doesn't make the Smart car a desirable POS.

So the ultimate question is: What gives a vehicle soul?

The answer to this question is different for everyone because everyone's taste is completely different and everyone is looking for something different. Or maybe they don't even know what they are looking for!

For me it's the balance of performance + function. When your vehicle has reached the level of communicating with you when you drive it to its absolute limit, and you can hear and feel the tires, transmission, engine and exhaust all telling you exactly what the vehicle is doing. The feel of the steering wheel moving through your finger tips and the drive becoming one fluid motion that you can clearly recall every movement and sound over and over again.

To quote Bruce Lee "I am the water in the cup and I conform to the shape of the cup."

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by knightarmor

So the ultimate question is: What gives a vehicle soul?

That's not the right question. Example: what gives a human a soul? Who knows, but we know when someone - or some thing - appears soul-less.

Sound and engines isn't what I think of when I think of soul.

The E9x is like a lion ... at slow speeds kind of lazy and lurchy, pokey and lugubrious. But then, as soon as it sees something it wants - it NEEDS - it transforms into this sleek, elegant , attack machine. For me, that's who the E9x is: a living thing with a distinct personality.

The F8x on the other hand, feels like a machine that I operate. It's faster and better than the E9x in every way, but a safari jeep and gun is faster and better than a lion.

The real difference is, the lion is a living thing with a soul and the safari Jeep is just a machine.

[knightarmor]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

That's not the right question. Example: what gives a human a soul? Who knows, but we know when someone - or some thing - appears soul-less.

Sound and engines isn't what I think of when I think of soul.

The E9x is like a lion ... at slow speeds kind of lazy and lurchy, pokey and lugubrious. But then, as soon as it sees something it wants - it NEEDS - it transforms into this sleek, elegant , attack machine. For me, that's who the E9x is: a living thing with a distinct personality.

The F8x on the other hand, feels like a machine that I operate. It's faster and better than the E9x in every way, but a safari jeep and gun is faster and better than a lion.

The real difference is, the lion is a living thing with a soul and the safari Jeep is just a machine.

And that is why the answer is different for everyone. The moment I believe I can communicate with my car my view of a machine changes. It's the same for you, you just described why you believe the E9X has a soul (or is it has soul?)

Either way. The vehicle I described above is not the M. I just received my M a few weeks ago. I may one day have the same experience with the M that makes me change the way I look at it but until then (to agree with you) to me it's just another car, which I believe is unbelievable and so far I call it perfect in every way.

If you ask me does my M have soul? My answer would be yes, but have I made the connection and had the experience to back up that answer? The answer to that is no. Someday I may have that experience, or I may never have that experience.

For reference, the vehicle I describe above, it took almost 13 years of ownership (and sweat and tears and lots of mods) to come to that realization.

Enjoy the drive!

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by badbimmer

E9x M3 is a very capable generation and does all you say in your first paragraph - acceleration, power slides, corners flat etc. Just as well as the F8x gen. and better in some respects certainly with its higher revving higher redline. It s a beast of a car and has the soul of an M car. And for those of you that say you owned one and it doesn't makes me think you never owned one and are a poseur, or your car lost its new car performance and you forgot how it performed when new. I drove an E92 M3 for 6 years and now own a 17 M3 ZCP.

There are certainly plusses and minuses to both cars, but the E9x gen is certainly not a wimpy version of the new series.

And I can't possibly imagine how a software update would "vastly" improve the sound of your car unless the update turned your "active sound" back on or made it louder.

And yes, sound is very important and gives "soul" to an automobile. Auto manufacturers go through great lengths and spend a great deal of time and effort to deliver an intoxicating sound because they know how important it is.... especially in a M. BMW couldnt do it in the F8x gen for some reason so they put in "active sound"... this PROVES the sound is severely lacking. What an embarrassment to drive a car where sound has to come through your speakers to give your car an acceptable sound. ... like a ricey Honda Civic.

For those of you that don't care about the sound of the car that's fine, but you probably should have bought a Tesla.

If a VW Beetle sounded like a Ferrari, would you pick that over a current gen M3/M4? Would the Beetle have more "soul"???

Sound has many different qualitative grades or "shades of grey". One does not have to be so binary and go from one end of the spectrum (F1 or Ferrari like sound) all the way to the other end of the spectrum (Tesla with no sound whatsoever).

The software update has been noted many times on this forum to improve the stock exhaust sound. I don't think anyone is going to claim it is on the same level as the S65 - but no need to be so "binary" about sound - I.e., absolutely good or absolutely bad.

I agree that the sound of the S65 is "better" at most rpm ranges - but the post-software updated S55 exhaust sound is pretty good...

And again - I'd still take the pre-software updated F8x over the E9x - if sound is so important - the MPE is always available...

[badbimmer]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

If a VW Beetle sounded like a Ferrari, would you pick that over a current gen M3/M4? Would the Beetle have more "soul"???

Sound has many different qualitative grades or "shades of grey". One does not have to be so binary and go from one end of the spectrum (F1 or Ferrari like sound) all the way to the other end of the spectrum (Tesla with no sound whatsoever).

The software update has been noted many times on this forum to improve the stock exhaust sound. I don't think anyone is going to claim it is on the same level as the S65 - but no need to be so "binary" about sound - I.e., absolutely good or absolutely bad.

I agree that the sound of the S65 is "better" at most rpm ranges - but the post-software updated S55 exhaust sound is pretty good...

And again - I'd still take the pre-software updated F8x over the E9x - if sound is so important - the MPE is always available...

Nope. MPE wont do it. Sound is both induction and exhaust. And even with MPE sound is no way near an E9x with MPE.

I had an full Akra installed on my E92.

I miss my E92 M3!

[Sedan_Clan]

If the E9X represented so much to some people, it often makes me wonder why they moved on from it in the first place.

[badbimmer]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

...my M4 actually sounds better with ASD shut off. So I would not agree with you here.

I get compliments on how good my M4 sounds almost on a daily basis (I do have an MPE on my civic M4). While it sounds nowhere as good as my E92 did, to say that the sound is an embarrassment is a gross exageration.

You misunderstood, I didn't say the sound of the car itself was an embarrasment --but active sound certainly is. And if yourcar sounds better with active sound off, why did BMW install active sound in the first place? We both know why.

[badbimmer]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

If the E9X represented so much to some people, it often makes me wonder why they moved on from it in the first place.

Well, with 95k miles the car lost most of its Mojo. Gets expensive to fix as well. So stop wondering so much, you may hurt yourself.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by badbimmer

Well, with 95k miles car list most of its Mojo. So stop wondering so much, you may hurt yourself.

Ahhhh another online smartass. Gotta love it! Why not buy a low mileage E9X? Carry on tough guy.

[badbimmer]

Ok big shot. I usuallly don't buy used - especially an M car ... you never know what your getting into.

There are other reasons... and we move on to the next gen expecting itt would be better and not seriously lacking in some areas.

No one wants to perpetually drive the same car for life, do you?

I hope this stops your wondering. Go find something creative to do.

[badbimmer]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I don't think we do.

For me, the chassis is also a key component of the character of a car. A good engine in a bad chassis isn't worth much to me.

Exactly. And if you put the s55 engine into an e9x, it will lose its soul. You need both a soulful engine and chassis for a car to have soul.

[trey100]

I don't put the sound of the S55 up there with my favorite sounding cars but I do like how it burbles and is deep at lower revs and I also like going full out. Sometimes in between those 2 points I hear some garbage disposal like sounds that do not sound good. Overall I'd say 7 out of 10. I do get tons of compliments from everyone though so it can't be that bad. Mine came with the newer software so not sure if that makes it any different.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by badbimmer

Exactly. And if you put the s55 engine into an e9x, it will lose its soul. You need both a soulful engine and chassis for a car to have soul.

Agreed that it's about the total package.

The F8X improved over the E9X in some areas and lost some in others.

[badbimmer]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Agreed that it's about the total package.

The F8X improved over the E9X in some areas and lost some in others.

This is true, but what it lost is its soul!